Tag Archives: murder.

State to call another witness?

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As you may know by now the defense wants their last witness, Dr. Robert Geffner, to rebut the testimony of Dr. Demarte regarding Borderline Personality Disorder. Now it has been confirmed that the defense wants Dr. Geffner to also rebut Dr. Horn, the ME’s testimony about the shot to the head. Just now I got a tweet from Jeff Gold, esq. about the state’s 17th supplemental witness list. They want Dr. Jill Hayes, PhD to rebut Dr. Geffner. This is really getting interesting!

Here’s a link to a bio of Dr. Jill Hayes:

http://hayespsychology.com/about/

What’s Wrong With Dr. Geffner?

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Though Dr. Geffner has some pretty hefty credentials he also has some serious issues having been impeached in some court cases. Check it out:

1.  His background is impressive, he is the Founder and President of the Family Violence and Sexual Assault Institute in San Diego, California. He has been a researcher and consultant for 28 years and has presented over 450 key note speeches.

2.  Now the bad news- for him: (This info is from a comment made by ‘Nancy B’ on the ‘My Crime Time’ blog). Regarding the Case of Cyndie O’Rourke v. James O’Rourke the court found Dr. Geffner to be nothing more than a ‘hired gun’ for the Mother in this case. This was a divorce/custody case where the Father prevailed. Apparently the MMPI test found ‘maladaptive personality traits’ in the Mother and Dr. Geffner challenged the use of the MMPI test and even went on to recommend that the Mother file ethics complaints against the other mental health professionals in the case.He felt he was the expert and the others were out of their expertise.  (Nancy B. shares a link for info. on the ‘My Crime Time’ blog). This indicates to me he will most likely imply the MMPI test is not valid in this case and Dr. Demarte doesn’t have the credentials that he does and her opinion is therefore inadequate.

3.  Dr. Geffner testified that he no longer treats patients but devotes all his time to consulting work related to his specialty. He has been an expert witness in a number of cases in different jurisdictions. Though he has testified in a great number of cases he stated that he did not remember very much about the facts of those cases.

4. In a Texas case; Clark v. Collins, 956 F.2d 68 (5th Circuit 1992) the court found that Dr. Geffner’s affidavit lacked credibility, in part because it was based on hearsay information supplied by the defendant’s attorney with no independent verification. (Sound like any defense attorneys we know who believe everything their client says?)

5. The court also excluded the Dr.’s testimony in Hawaii v. French, 129 P.3d 581 (Hawaii 2006) involving allegations of child sexual abuse.

6. In State v. Supulvado, 655 So.2d 623 (La. App. 1995) the court limited most of his testimony as he relied mostly on the information supplied by the defendant and he testified about effects of brain damage on emotional functioning though he is not a medical doctor.

7. So I dug a little more and found this:

Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668, 687, 104 S.Ct. 2052, 2064, 80 L.Ed.2d 674 (1984). “[C]ounsel is strongly presumed to have rendered adequate assistance and made all significant decisions in the exercise of reasonable professional judgment. Id. at 690, 104 S.Ct. at 2066.

22 The state trial court found that Dr. Geffner’s affidavit lacked credibility for three reasons: (1) the evaluation, which makes conclusions as to Clark’s conduct in 1987, was conducted five years later, in 1992; (2) Dr. Geffner did not review the court records or a transcript of the trial testimony; and (3) Dr. Geffner relied upon records from Clark’s childhood in Pennsylvania, with no records since 1976, and upon hearsay information supplied by Clark’s attorneys, with no independent verification of the information, and interviews with Clark. The state court further found that, even if credible, Dr. Geffner’s affidavit does not support a conclusion that Clark was either incompetent or insane at the time of the murders, or that he did not act deliberately within the meaning of the first special issue.

8. Oh, and did I mention he was an editor for Alyce LaViolette?

Should be a field day for Mr. Martinez!

Arias Trial 4/25

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Rebuttal- Martinez

  1. Dr. Horn, the Medical Examiner is up. If the gunshot was first it would have been immediately incapacitating. Travis could have gone a step or two and then lost consciousness in seconds. JM shows many of the autopsy pics including the throat slash. The Dr. says after the shot there would be no holding onto someone, no attempt to defend, no grabbing at the knife or raising of his hands (his hands have defensive wounds), no crawling away, no walking to the sink, and no walking down the hallway.
  2. Willmott establishes the Dr. has done over 6000 autopsies, many gun shot wounds. A 25 caliber gun is not that powerful, the bullet didn’t exit as it was stopped by bone. Also he was shot from a few feet away- so even less force. She gets him to say it wasn’t immediately fatal- but was immediately incapacitating. A shot to the face can make you bleed through the nose. She tries to get the Dr. to say he told Detective Flores that the bullet would not have been immediately incapacitating. He doesn’t recall saying that. She points out he did say something to that effect in testimony- he admits he did but immediately corrected in the very next statement. Willmott tries to get him to say there was no injury to the brain and he says that you can’t see it because of decomp but that it is ‘simple geometry’ the path the bullet took. The knife wound to the vena cava is from below- Willmott points out- so from someone shorter.

 

Jury Questions: (paraphrased)

1.  If shot and bleeding from the nose and mouth wouldn’t there be blood on the bathroom floor?    Yes.

2.  Could you be mistaken that Travis could still ambulate (after the shot)?   No.

3.  Is there any way Travis could have still moved well?     If the bullet had not passed through his brain.

4.  How do you know he was still alive when his throat was cut?    The amount of hemorrhage requires a beating heart.

5.  How many cases have you had with a 25 caliber gun?   At least 100-200.

 

Martinez:

1.  If the bullet was the first wound would it be immediately incapacitating?   Yes.

2.  Is there any situation where a bullet goes through the frontal lobe and you are ambulatory for several minutes?    Only if you were already walking and took a step or two.

3.  If you are shot and already on the ground could you get up and walk around?   No.

 

Willmott:

1.  If still alive when the knife wound was made there would be quite a bit of blood in the hallway?   Yes, an injury of some kind happened there.

2.  The gunshot went from right downwards to the cheek?   It could be deflected.

3.  With the neck wound within seconds he would not be able to hold up his head?   Yes.

4.  After the neck wound he would have been lying flat?  Depends on where they are (he gives example of if in a chair they might stay up).

 

***According to Chris Stark on Twitter the judge has excused juror #8.  He is described as the ‘Dad’ type with a goatee who took lots of notes. Jurors are asked to be back on Wednesday, May 1 at 9.  We expect the Defense surrebuttal witness Dr. Robert Geffner that day. He is an editor for Alyce DeLaviolette and works in domestic violence. Vinnie Politan just tweeted they brought a bomb sniffing dog in today! 

Arias trial 4/24

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  1. The hearings this morning were closed. The defense has made motions to keep out several prosecution witnesses. My previous post (on mixedbagblog.wordpress.com) has this info.
  2. The judge goes over the schedule: Tomorrow starts at 9:30 and goes for ‘a little while.’ The next court day will be Wednesday, May 1 starting at 9 and going ‘until we finish.’ Final jury instructions will be Thursday, May 2 and closing arguments will be Thursday and Friday. The case will then go to the jury.  (Arizona juries do not deliberate over the weekend.)
  3. JM starts by playing the DVD where JA is in Travis’ lap. This time it’s the longer version- you can see her sit up. There is no sound.
  4. Robert Brown- Mesa Computer Forensics detective. There are 3 photos of JA with dark brown hair shown from her helio phone dated June 3, 2008. JM also shows a previous picture with her blonde hair- I saw no date. The Walmart receipt was after these photos. Nurmi questions the time of the photos- Brown says the phone records where it is taken at the time taken.
  5. Det. Flores is up. He brings in many photos of Travis’s shelving from the closet (where the gun supposedly was). He set these up in March 2013. The shelf is 7 feet tall. He proves the shelves were ‘floating’ on 4 pins. One exhibit (which the live feed didn’t show) describes his hand pushing the shelf down. JM asks if there was any nudity in the “Harder Faster Stronger” video- Flores says: “No.” Nurmi asks if he measured every shelf. (He didn’t – he actually says: “There was no need” and Nurmi says: “Did I ask you if there was a need?”) He asks Flores about JA’s high IQ (?) then he says over and over  while pointing out different shelves- ‘JA didn’t say the gun was here?’ Flores: “No.”
  6. Nurmi asks Flores if the Hughes said Travis was ‘addicted to Jodi’ –JM objects. (Sustained). Nurmi asks if Flores said in his interview with 48hrs that ‘something provoked Ms. Arias at the end’ –JM objects and there is a recess. Nurmi asks if he investigated how the shelf would react to weight as it is resting on dividers- Flores: “No, I did not.”

 

Jury Questions and Answers: (paraphrased)

1.  Any record of a gun owned by Travis?    No.

2.  Any significance to measuring every shelf?    No.

3.  Any shoes out of place when you arrived on the scene?   Nothing appeared out of place.

4.  Did Travis’ roommates ever own a gun?    No, they did not.

5.  What’s the width of the end shelf unit where the gun was?     Shelves were 36-38” long, 16” deep and ¾” wide.

6.  Jodi said she helped Travis put things in the attic- did you find anything?    No.

7.  Was the attic capable of storing boxes?    There are just beams…maybe if light.

8.  Can you tell was anything ever stored in the attic?    No.

9.  Where’s the entrance to the attic?    Closet. 

10.  Jodi’s weight, height, shoe size?    Don’t know shoe, height 5’5”-5’6”, weight 115-120.

11.  Are the pins round the entire length?    Yes.

12. Were there any signs of a gun at Travis’ house?    None whatsoever.

13.  Any empty boxes/containers in Travis’ closet for gun?    No.

14.  If JA stood with arms straight up did you measure how tall to her fingertips?   No I did not.

 

No follow up by Martinez.

Nurmi goes over:

  1. Arizona doesn’t require guns to be registered.
  2. Shelves free float and go back in place.
  3. The attic has more than just the entrance in Travis’ closet.
  4. He asks Flores if someone told him there was nothing stored in the attic. Flores- ‘yes.’ Nurmi then says something like: ‘you know because someone told you…just like Dr. Horn.’ (He is referencing that Flores misunderstood the Dr. when he said that the gunshot was last).

 

  1. JA’s grandma, the one she was living with at the time of the killing is in court today.

Court is in recess until tomorrow at 9:30.

 

Why Wash the Camera?

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One thing I feel compelled to address- the camera. I keep reading on the internet people saying that JA accidentally washed the camera. I don’t think so. In my opinion she took great delight in washing Travis’ brand new camera that he bought for the Cancun trip. If you recall she said on the stand that she was careful to stay a few feet away from the shower so the camera wouldn’t get wet. This proves she thought getting it wet would ruin it. I’ll bet at first she thought to just delete the incriminating photos, then after trying to clean the scene she grabbed the towels and clothes and then thought to wash it. I can just see her grinning as she is pouring bleach over his brand new toy and then turning on the machine. She wanted to destroy it just like she destroyed him.

Finished- 4/18 summary (with juror questions)

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(#18 continued)

-Identity: JA changes the way she looks; implants, hair color, to fit in. Changed religion in 2 months after meeting Travis.

-Suicidal Ideation-In her journals.

-Instability: She has quick changes in emotions-all her men saw this.

-Emptiness: She told JD she often felt this way.

-Intense anger: Breaking door and windows, In journal she says she has hate inside of her. Though 1 anger score was los 2 others were high.

       19.  Travis was angry in the e-mail because she had invaded his boundaries and       lied.

      20.  JM asks if JA was a victim of abuse. JD says there was no pattern of abuse.

 

Juror Questions:

1.  How many forensic cases have you worked on?   I’ve been working on them for several years.
2.  How many times have you testified ?   3 times.
3.  How many cases involved abuse?     In my general practice it’s common to have abuse involved. For forensic cases I’ll need a second to think…
4.  Hypothetically if a person suffered PTSD from a bear attack while hiking would you throw out their PDS test if they lied and said it was a tiger?     Yes- those would be different events. A lot of time with PTSD is there are triggering events that remind them of the trauma so a bear and a tiger would look different, smell different, act different. The subsequent symptoms would be associated with those variables.
5.  Would the person be answering the question the same whether they called the animal a bear or a tiger?     They would be answering it very different.
6.  Do you believe absolutely that it is possible to remain purely unbiased in an evaluation once compassion creeps in?    I do think it’s possible to remain unbiased.
7.  What types of people are at risk for having Borderline Personality Disorder?    Anyone’s at risk but there’s a higher rate in individuals who have been exposed to trauma and neglect in their lifetime. One of the things that’s often talked about is this idea of constantly being invalidated by family members. For example if a child gets hurt and is crying, an example of invalidation is a parent saying: “you’re not hurt, you’re fine” They’re invalidating their feelings. That increases the chances of developing BPD if it happens frequently throughout their childhood.
8.  Do you feel ‘mark my words no jury will convict me’ is part of borderline personality disorder especially since she is smiling when she says it?     That’s a sign of immaturity that I talked about before. These kinds of immature statements are often seen in people with BPD.
9.  Wouldn’t taking the camera rather than leaving it show more organizational thinking capability?    Both are an example of organizational thinking, just different types of organization with the goal being to hide the evidence.
10.   When asked by the defense about efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment you stated you had other examples for this category that did not involve Travis. Can you share those examples?
Throughout her diary she used the word abandon ‘I feel abandoned’ She made that comment at least a couple times with other boyfriends. They would cheat on her and she would continue in that relationship and subsequently befriend them despite being treated in that kind of way.
11.   Do you think trying to delete photos and washing the camera as an attempt to destroy evidence?   Yes, it gives the impressions that she was trying to destroy evidence.
12.   If you had not seen pictures proving the evidence was recovered from the camera, would you have viewed this as an effective attempt to destroy evidence?
Yes, my knowledge of cameras is that it would be destroyed if you put it in water.
13.  In your opinion is it normal for a person who is incarcerated to be depressed and have anxiety?    Yes, I’ve worked with many individuals who have been incarcerated. It’s not something unusual.
14.  Do you consider Arias shooting; stabbing and slitting Alexander’s throat a traumatic event?    It depends on how Jodi reacted it to it. If she had this horror and fear associated with it then yes, I would consider it being associated with PTSD.
15.  Why didn’t you re-administer all the tests that the previous experts had given?    I felt like the tests that I gave answered the questions I needed.
16.  Do you know what the differences are between the TSI1 vs TSI2?   There’s a slight difference but I’m not that familiar with it
17.  Regarding the PDS answer sheet, do you know whose handwriting is on it?     No, I would have to assume…
18.  Do you see any issues with Dr. Samuels filling out the answer sheet and possibly summarizing?     Yes, the only time that should happen is if there’s an impairment  (physical handicap) that prevents the person from filling it out themselves. .
19.  Does it cause concern that the written answers appear to be answered by someone who is familiar with psychological verbiage and not layman’s verbiage?
Yes, that’s very concerning.

 

JM is up:

  1. He asks how many forensic cases she has worked on- JD: around 75.

JW is up:

  1. JW says staying in relationships with cheaters could just be low self esteem.
  2. Anxiety and depression could be jail is not uncommon. JA still scored high on those when she did the TSI for before jail.
  3. They go over why JD didn’t use the newer version of the TSI- her workplace had not purchased it. She has only done the TSI one other time since.
  4. JW gets JD to admit if the data is transferred correctly it may be okay to hand write the answers and transfer them to the answer sheet.

Arias Trial -4/18

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Today was a long one- here is what I have so far:

Willmott vs. Demarte:

  1. They agree that Fight/Flight mode is to survive and some memory can be affected. Also that if memories aren’t encoded they won’t come back- JD says that it’s rare. JD points out JA has no issues with encoding memory now (she claims that brain can be damaged with prolonged memory loss and though JA claims a long memory loss she shows no signs). Also gross motor skills can still function.
  2. They argue over who deleted the photos from June 4. JM objects when JW keeps saying ‘…when Travis ‘attacked’ Jodi. JW implies that since JA is a photographer she could delete photos easily. JD contends that choosing  which photos to delete is different. JW says she has no knowledge of whether JA deleted all photos or choose photos.
  3. Regarding cleaning the crime scene- JW says JA didn’t do a very good job.
  4. JW claims leaving the camera there with evidence of JA being present shows she didn’t plan/organize this. JD says yes she did as she tried to destroy the camera by putting it through a cycle. JW claims there is no mention it went through a cycle.
  5. JD claimed JA’s memory seemed worse since talking to Dr. Samuels. JW says it’s just she didn’t get as much info as Dr. S. because she didn’t spend as much time with JA.
  6. JD finds it ‘unbelievable’ that JA ‘saw blood on her hands and thought something bad had happened.’ JA told her that she ‘knew she had killed Travis.’ They argue this point until JD concedes, somewhat, that her opinion is subjective.
  7. JW lists several tests given by Dr. Karp to determine if JA was a battered woman. JD did not give any ‘battered women’ tests to JA. JW and JD agree that battered women tend to minimize.
  8. They go through the Borderline Personality Disorder examples given by JD. JW says there has to be evidence of BPD before June 4…JD agrees.
  9. BPD point 1-Avoiding abandonment. JW points out that though JA did move to Mesa after the breakup they had never stopped talking and had taken trips and had sex together later. JD says JA crossed boundaries by looking at Travis’ texts and Facebook without his permission. JW says they exchanged their passwords.

10. BDP 2: Unstable relationships. JW says she moved out as a teen and had just 4 relationships since. JD points out she went from boyfriend to boyfriend (and her childhood friend indicated the same), and she had 10 different restaurant jobs as well as other jobs. JW makes the mistake of having her confirm that – and she does, along with the 10 restaurant jobs she worked as a receptionist at a spa and also as a childcare giver. JW points out she was with Brewer for 4 years and Matt for 2 showing stability.

11. BPD 3: Self image conflict. Joined the Mormon church quickly. JW says that Travis sent missionaries to her house until she converted.

12. BPD 5 (she didn’t qualify for #4): Suicidal ideation. JD says it occurs a lot in her journals. JW says there was no actual plan to commit suicide. JD says the idea was there, also friends and parents indicated the same.

13. BPD 6: Instability. Happy to sad in the same journal entry (JW-just one data point).

14. BPD 7: Emptiness. JA described feelings of emptiness to JD (another data point). JW says this was after June 4.

15. BPD 8: Anger. JW asks about any pattern of physical abuse and JD brings up that she kicked her Mom. JW says they were arguing (and JA was a teen). JD says her Mom had just made a neutral comment. JD also indicates the family said JA had internal anger through most of her life and that people described her as ‘irritable’ and ‘upset.’ JW says people also described JA as kind, loving and happy. They go over the e-m from yesterday where JA says she kicked in door, etc. JW points out that e-m started with her being compassionate about Travis. Asked if JD ever spoke to JA about this e-m she says she didn’t as she had already done the interview.

16. The MMPI test scores twice as a protocol.

17. JW brings up not going behind the words and enters the e-m from Travis to the Hughes’. Travis felt fondly for JA and said: “They don’t get more honest than Jodi.” Then the May 26th e-m (Travis and JA) JW points out all the names he calls her and how it is character assassination. JD points out that there is a pattern of bad language within the texts but there are only a handful of these types of texts and they were a response to her. They argue over whether this is a pattern of abuse. Asking about getting info behind the word- JD says she can’t ask Travis as he is no longer here. JW says other ways to confirm.

Afternoon Session

  1. JW wants to clarify:

-The 10 different restaurants were over 15 years. JD says no, it was 8 years; they were after she worked at her father’s restaurant.

– Mom said JA mentioned suicide after June 4. JD says it’s part of the pattern.

-She doesn’t go from boyfriend to boyfriend as she was single for months after Matt. JD says that is not what she told her.*

-She tried to move on by joining LDS linkup. JD didn’t know.

-Travis called her names starting with ‘skank’ in Jan. 2007…abusive? JD says no, just ‘what he called her.’

-JD is not a DV expert. JD says she meant there is no license for DV. She does have a Clinical Psych. license and a lot of experience in DV.

-Jan. journal entry- after he broke finger- ‘nothing to report’ data point? JD: “Yes.” JW also mentions: “Cannot marry him…there’s something off…”

        2.  MMPI test results are valid. Anything over 65 is clinically significant. JA scored 65 on depression. JD says she doesn’t interpret the scales JW wants to discuss. JW does anyhow-JA’s low-positive-emotions were a 70. JD says she doesn’t use as not enough research backing these scales.

       3.  MMPI content scales (JD does use). Anxiety=76. Depression=elevated. Bizarrementation (bizarre thoughts)=elevated. JW says these are often associated with trauma? JD: “Among other things.” Anti-social personality=below avg. (average). Low self esteem-broken into 2 categories: 1. Self Doubt (Identity)=68 2. Submissiveness=60. Anger=avg. Anger subscales (JD says this is an inappropriate use of the MMPI) Explosive/Irritability=normal.

4.  MMPI supplementary scales. Anxiety=elevated. Repression=above norm. Ego strength=below norm. Dominance=below norm. PTSD=77. Overcontrolled/Hostility=below norm. JW asks if there is a pattern of anxiety and low self esteem and JD says ‘anxiety-yes.’ Self doubt means a poor sense of self and submissiveness is still below clinical. JW- she has depression and anxiety- JD –yes. JW – all associated with Battered Women’s Syndrome. JD still argues these are not the scales she uses. JW goes on…anxiety, depression and low self esteem are all part of PTSD? JD- Some symptoms in PTSD and some in other disorders. They’re not always depressed or have low self esteem. They argue. JD is trying to point out you do analyze the low scores, only clinically valid scores.

 

Martinez is up:

  1. JD doesn’t walk in with compassion. Presents cross ethical guidelines. Staring with an apology seems biased. When biased you tend to skew things your way.
  2. The e-m to the Hughes’ where Travis says Jodi is honest- was before they were even boyfriend/girlfriend. The nasty e-m in May was at the end.
  3. JM tries to get in points regarding the stalking. JD recalls JA going into his Facebook, stealing his ring, deleting his e-m’s.
  4. JD explains that there is no license for a DV or PTSD expert- the only license for those disorders are Clinical Psych.’s and she is one. Mentions that Lenore Walker’s 6 points (to determine a battered woman) are still valid. JD says JA does not fit the criteria.
  5. Regarding experiences to avoid memories JA wrote about Travis in journal, went to Memorial, drove by his house.
  6. All Psych.’s charge for forensic testimony.
  7. JD didn’t list everything on her CV- it would be too long and she doesn’t have time.
  8. JD’s TSI was consistent with Dr. Karp’s. JD felt it was difficult to determine the specific traumas.
  9. JM asks if you would have anxiety and depression in jail. JD says: “Yes.”

10. TSI test during relationship with Travis. JA had anxiety and depression. JD mentions she felt that when with Juarez. Also both are indicative of PTSD and BPD. JD says that having a lot of elevations on the TSI indicates BPD.

11. JA’s stressors included thoughts, the crime, working with family and attorneys. She also had stress over the conflict between sex and her religion. General emotional stress is common in BPD.

12. JD says the MCMI is normed against clinical patients. Therefore the sensitivity is lower…both for PTSD and BPD.

13. Dr. Samuels got a disorder on the MCMI axis 2…’personality disorder otherwise not specified’ suggesting problematic personality traits.

14. Because the trauma sited on JA’s PDS was untruthful it is completely invalidated according to JD. (Including all the subsequent symptoms.

15. JD explains that most psych.’s don’t use certain scales on the MMPI test as they don’t have empirical support (no research backing it). The 3 scales she did use support BPD. Though the PTSD score was elevated it does not speak to a specific trauma- more ‘feeling out of control.’

16. Regarding the nasty texts- JD felt these were infrequent and happened when he felt lied to, betrayed <Objection> she knows this because Travis accuses her of lying. He reacted. They has many day to day texts that have no language like this.

17. The ‘something’s off with that boy’ comment goes on to say JA didn’t like a joke he made about spending time with family and JA ‘abhors’ that.

18. They go through the list of criteria for BPD and how it applies to JA (again).

-Avoid abandonment: hiding behind a Christmas tree at Travis’. Showing up unannounced repeatedly. (In previous relationships as well).

-Unstable relationships

-Idealize/devalue: JA says ‘something is wrong with that boy’ and ‘Travis is awesome’ in the same journal entry. JD says after Travis’ Memorial JA got the phone number from a guy on the plane and called him when she got home!

More tomorrow!

Juror Q & A- LaViollette (4/12)

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  1. Please explain why you feel Jodi is not manipulative either before or after the killing based on the review of statements and interviews.

Based on the information that I have,  (ummm) I don’t see a pattern of manipulation the way I would define it.  (umm)I haven’t seen that in terms of her trying to… (uh) and I’m not sure exactly what this is in  reference to so it’s a hard question for me to answer but I think anybody can be manipulative. What I look for are patterns and I didn’t see them in the materials that I read in terms of her relationship with Mr. A. so   I’m not sure how else to answer that.

**OK- I will skip the ‘uhs,’ ‘ums’ etc. Just so you know her sentences don’t always make sense. I also might paraphrase or skip a tangent. I will put  ‘>>>’ when I skip tangents…and this is close to a transcript- paraphrased somewhat.

  

 

  1. On the one side, we have demeaning multiple verbal slurs, a slap, a shove, a chokehold and a lunge perpetrated on Jodi. On the other, we have a gunshot to the head, a 4” deep slit throat and close to 30 stab wounds delivered by Jodi to Travis. Is not the perpetrator of the greatest domestic violence Jodi?
    I think what happened to Mr. A. is horrific <Objection> I think that self-defense <O> Judge repeats: Is not the perpetrator of the greatest DV Jodi? (waiting…) “No.”

 

 

 

      3.  In the hypothetical given by Mr. Martinez is it possible Travis was the one who told Jodi he wanted her to leave…if that were true then isn’t it likely Travis never hit her that day?     I can only go on the materials that I’ve read, (that were available to me) and when I look at that…ya know I don’t have face to face corroboration that he hit her that day. What I have is evidence that as she began to pull away things escalated.

 

      4. When Jodi went to confront Bianca about being with Matt can’t that be seen as  she did it because she was jealous?     It could be seen that way.  (Repeat). The nature of the confrontation didn’t seem to be hostile.  From either Jodi’s report Mr’ McCartney’s …so in that way she could have been motivated by jealousy but the confrontation or the talk didn’t seem to be hostile.

 

      5. Jodi went through Travis’ emails, messages and inbox (MySpace). Did you take any of that into consideration when making your assessment?     Yes I did.

 

      6. You bought Miss Arias books, apologized upon meeting her, and ordered her a magazine subscription. Did you do anything else to establish a relationship with Jodi?     Simply talking to her and meeting with her>>>spending the hours talking in jail with her but no, nothing else.

 

      7. Have you given her anything else?    No I haven’t.    Have you ever had any physical contact with her? Hugs, friendly touching etc?     I don’t think so, I might have touched her arm…in jail there’s a screen… and that was my meetings with Jodi…other than what you see in court.

 

      8. How do you know Jodi received spider man underwear from Travis on Valentines day? Did you see them? Pictures? Or anything else? The only thing I saw was the text message…she was bringing the Spiderman underwear.

 

       9. How many men have you testified for in criminal court?    I haven’t testified much in Criminal Court>>>so 1 or 2.

 

     10. If you had been given access to everything except interviews with Jodi how would your opinion have varied, if at all?     I think that um, well, I could have come to the same conclusion because part of what I read about the interactions between JA and TA, other women and TA, the Hughes’s responses, parts of his journals, first page of MySpace, and collateral interviews.

    

     11. Would you have adjusted your belief in the level of abuse if you had been given access to everything except the interviews with Jodi?     No because given my experience (and those she works with) the level of psychological abuse and character assassination was incredibly high in this case. (Gives example).

 

     12. Other than what Jodi has told you, in what other sources did you see evidence of physical violence by Travis?      I actually didn’t see other evidences of physical violence by TA, other than what JA told me.

 

     14. Would your analysis of this relationship change if, hypothetically speaking, you found out the stories of Travis being violent and masturbating to children were made up?      I would still rely on what I knew about the psychological abuse- (she goes into her working with victims) ….they say psychological abuse is worse than physical.

 

 15. Regarding non-verbal communication, do you think that you can read through a string of text messages, emails etc between two people and know exactly what the non-verbal communication is?      No.

 

     16. How do you know tone, meaning, inside jokes etc. if you cannot get both sides of the story?       Well there would be no way for me to interview Mr. A. but I read so much of what he put together (she talks about history –written documents) …rely on the written evidence and I had a fair amount that I relied on.

 

17. You said other sources said Jodi was not manipulative, who are these sources? Mr. McCartney and Mr. Brewer (previous boyfriends) she had longer term relationships with and when she was older I didn’t read about her being manipulative to her sisters or brothers…there was this period when she was young and a teenager (teens can be manipulative) …but as an  adult I didn’t hear her described that way at all.

 

18. When interviewing Jodi you claimed you did not asking leading questions. If someone asks a simple question that elicits a simple y/n response, would you consider that a leading question?     Gosh I’ve been asked a lot of y/n questions and I think they’re questions, I don’t think they’re leading questions. … I work very hard not to do that.

 

19. You say Travis has no indication of being stalked. He displays no fearful behavior and continues his contact with Jodi of his own accord. How do you reconcile Jodi’s claim of DV if she continues her contact with Travis of her own accord…where was her fearful behavior?      Domestic Violence and stalking… tend to be different. …Battered women go back and forth…you don’t see people leave and stay gone and their fear develops over a longer time.  Stalking- fear tends to develop in a shorter time…real stalking occurs when end of the relationship. And no more contact is desired. >>>

 

20. Do you consider someone who says: “no jury will ever convict me” to be a person with low self esteem?     It sounds like a really foolish statement to me…I don’t know what to say about self esteem but it doesn’t seem like a good statement to make…

 

21. How can you say that Jodi and Travis’ relationship was abuse with no proof other than name calling on paper and Jodi’s word?       It’s the degree of name calling and putting down, the level of escalation. And the words of his 2 closest friends, his relations with other women…so it’s not just from JA’s words>>>those kind of words I don’t think anyone would want their daughter called those kind of words>>>they would see it as abusive.

 

22. Do you handle cases where the female is the abuser?      Yes I do.

 

23. Did Travis discuss abuse of Jodi or any other women in his journal entries?      No, he didn’t.

 

24. In all the evidence you reviewed, was there any indication anywhere of Travis claiming stalking by anyone else other than Jodi?      No, I don’t believe so.

 

25. Of the times you have testified in other cases, how many of these were in def. of men?  Not just criminal, I’ve also worked in family law…of the 18 times I’ve testified that I have worked 3 or 4 and defense has a broader brush… referrals I’ve had men accused of beating their wife and children  and I’ve worked with the attorney and also intervention//  (//means Mr. Martinez objected and the Judge moved on to the next question)

 

26. What is the manifesto you referred to during your testimony?      I actually don’t know because I’ve never seen it.

 

27. Is there a type of stalking… that a person is comfortable around someone in person but are afraid of them or what they are capable of when they are not around?
There’s …when you look at abuse…and battering…when moving apart and coming back together – there’s disbelief the relationship is going to end. There might even be a protective order, they might meet again for dinner- very common. Still some back and forth, that’s not stalking. Once the stalker realizes you mean business…that’s when their behavior will escalate and get worse.

 

28. When speaking of blackmail and being threatened, are you aware that Jodi threatened Travis by saying she would let out that he was a pedophile?      I was not aware of that.   Does that mean anything to you?      Yes, of course it means something to me, yes.

 

29. You stated it would be beneficial for Jodi to write things she was lying about in her journal, to buck up her story. How would she write about these things if her story didn’t change until well after the killing hypothetically speaking?       If she had planned something …on being separate from Travis, it seems like she would use, she would be building up a story that would use all this. I don’t see a plan here to separate from Travis and build a self-defense case.

 

30.   Regarding the text from Travis to Jodi where he is upset about her BS story from Michelle or Elena, what exactly was the BS story that Jodi told Travis?       The ‘B.S. story’ the woman came into the restaurant and told Jodi that Travis was with Lisa…(which was true). Where did you get this info?   ….came from the communications.  What Jodi gave me and what Lisa wrote, so it wasn’t a B.S. Story.

You stated that Travis was the one lying in this message, how do you know this for sure?      Because I read the information from Lisa…so there was corroboration. How can you know that Jodi’s B.S. story was not a lie? (Not the subject but the actual story that was told.)      I can’t I don’t know the story that was told to Travis.

 

31. You seem to believe that when the argument began between Jodi and Travis prior to the Havasupai trip that he called her upstairs that he only wanted to pursue an argument. How do you know he didn’t want to get the issue resolved and calm her and may have been embarrassed in front of the Freemans?      I don’t know that and I didn’t use heavily in my assessment.

 

32. Can you explain how Ms. Arias can remember physical abuse incidents so vividly but does not write anything, not even a reference to her feelings, in her journal?      About the incidents? (Judge re-reads) I believe, well, there were different places she wrote references to her feelings…I can’t explain what somebody does…can’t explain what they don’t write down.

 

33. You testified writings could have supported her statements however, is it possible the incidents of abuse reported by Jodi were reported after the fact as a secondary gain to benefit her?     That’s possible, that’s possible. I didn’t rely just rely on her oral or verbal report.

 

34. Do you have any evidence other than Jodi’s word that Travis made her tear out pages and write only positive thoughts?     No I didn’t.

 

35. Who, from Jodi’s past did you interview that were able to rule out Jodi’s manipulative behavior being a pattern?      I wasn’t able to interview anyone from her past directly. I was given the interviews that were done at the beginning. There were at least reviewed 20 collaterals, more collateral sources in this case than any case I’ve worked on.

 

36. You told us that you like to meet with each individual before analyzing the relationship. We have heard Jodi’s side of the story. Can you tell us Travis’ side of the story?       Well, by law I can’t interview//  Travis’ family. I obviously can’t interview Mr. A. I had 7 hours of unedited footage regarding Mr. A. that people spoke very well of him…with friends and family. Looked at some of the things he did. He was kind and generous, he made people laugh and motivated people. I didn’t feel he was a one-dimensional human being. I feel that there were very good parts of Mr. A.>>>  Mr. A had some outstanding traits.

 

37.  You mentioned that stalking could fall under the abuse and battery columns in your continuum. If that is true why is stalking excluded from those columns? Actually because when I talk about that in training I call that normal stalking – neither party believes each other>>>pull back and forth…common for someone to get a protective order and the partner believes they can keep pushing…until actually enforces the P.O. that they change their mind…they know that they mean business. Is your continuum incomplete?  Why not list all the appropriate bullet points for the appropriate column?      Yes, my continuum is incomplete. It is. I’m messing with it all the time. (Goes on …dead sea scroll…framework…)

 

38. You stated that you have chosen not to take cases in the past because you did not believe an individual. Did you take this case, in part, because you believed Jodi?   Yes.     If you did not believe her would you have chosen to turn it down?      Yes.

If you start out believing in an individual doesn’t that, by default, set up  prejudices towards their partner?          No, because I’ve had cases where as I’ve pursued them I’ve found them not credible and I’ve talked to the attornies  …if I don’t find enough credible evidence I don’t testify>>>I don’t have a great retirement after 34 years //

 

 

39. You stated that regarding anger, it is more common for someone to have a burst of anger, then calm down. Is it possible that Travis’ rants seem longer because they are being viewed in text form?      Actually they go on over a period of 2-3 hours which is pretty long and then follow up with the other//  There were long rants, the longest to me was 2-3 hours- I Think it was the 5/26th, date not as important as the context, there was a follow-up>>> this went on for another, I think for 16 pages or something like that…it’s an extensive length of time.

 

40. Can you explain what you mean by a burst of anger? Can a 10 or 20 minute rant be described as a burst?      A 10-20 minute  could be described as a burst. What you look at (gives example of a case) is what’s in that burst.

 

41. If a couple has an argument that takes all day to end can they still be in a healthy relationship?      Yes, absolutely.   Would that type of argument indicate abuse?      It wouldn’t indicate abuse at all.

   

42.  Is it possible for 2 people to be abusive to each other?     Yes.

 

43. Don’t you believe that Travis making comments about a 12 year old girl while having a phone sex conversation with Jodi is fundamentally different than Travis allegedly masturbating to photos of young boys?      I think it’s different it’s just an unusual comment to make from a 30 year old man about a 12 year old girl.

 

44. Would you characterize your knowledge of June 4, 2008, as light or incomplete? I think some of the details of where something happened  I’m clearer on it now but I knew in general what happened. I was focused on what led up to June 4th and what happened June 4th.

 

45. Are you confused on any of the details of that afternoon?     Well I was, I said that  I believed that the shot was fired in the closet and it wasn’t. I think I know most of he detail.            some of the dates where something happened..I was focused on what led up to June 4th and what happened June 4th.

 

46. Do you think it is deceptive for someone to not share the most private and intimate details of their lives, like their sexual activities, with their friends and family or do you consider it normal to keep those things private?   I think most people keep the details of their sexual lives private.    If normal, why do you think Travis’ attempts to keep those things private is deceptive?      I don’t think him keeping his private life, his sexual life is deceptive. I think putting himself out as someone who obeys the Laws of Chastity and is a 30 year old virgin is deceptive.

 

47. Did you ever see evidence that Jodi was openly sharing all of her most private sexual details with her friends and family? No, I didn’t. Would you consider that deceptive? No, I don’t. She never claimed to be a virgin. Certainly she was part of the Mormon faith and not going along with the Laws of Chastity.

 

48. You say Jodi’s lies started after she killed Travis, how could you possibly know this?      I can only go on the reports of people in her life prior to that, once again primarily the 2 men that she spent most of her adult life with when in her 20’s  (Matt & Derryl) neither described her as a liar.

 

49. Do you believe that Jodi was subjected to sexual degradation at the hands of Travis?      I believe she participated in the relationship, went along with things >> wanted to be in that relationship and went further than she should.

 

50. You stated that you saw no signs of Travis being sexually degraded by Jodi. Noting his desire to see her in Ca., his actions on the sex call and various texts, i-m’s etc. Couldn’t that same argument be made regarding Jodi’s alleged sexual degradation given her desire to see Travis, her actions on the sex call, etc?     Yes, I’ve not heard Jodi say she was sexually degraded and humiliated…not heard her testimony…hasn’t made claims of that.

 

51. Considering only the written conversations and journals (excluding the interview with Jodi) did you see abuse?   Please explain.       I’m confused by that – I’m thinking it’s about  Jodi’s journals and 2 interviews, if I excluded  those things,  I would still see that as abuse.     What level would you place that abuse?    The   verbal abuse was in battering>>>  Definitely battery.

 

52. Considering only the journals, did you see an escalation?      Oh, yeah, I saw an escalation over time the rants longer, put-downs are worse. Him talking about his own anger being scary.

 

53.   You mentioned Travis was in a 7-year relationship with Deanna. Are you aware of anyone interviewing her to determine if she was a victim or survivor?      I don’t know of any interview with Deanna.   I didn’t see anything that indicated that she was a survivor of abuse.       Did you interview her?     No, I did not.

 

54. You keep saying that Jodi doesn’t match your definition of manipulative. Is it possible that your definition of manipulation differs from others?      Yes, yes it is. Is it possible that your definition is wrong?      Sure.

 

55. Yesterday you mentioned Jodi’s behavior towards her mother. Do you honestly believe that hitting and kicking your parents are normal behavior at any age?        No, I don’t believe I said it was normal teenage behavior. I said it was not appropriate teenage behavior. But it is behavior teenagers do. I don’t think it’s good behavior.

The summary for after these questions will follow.

 

Arias trial 4/11-morning session

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Re-Direct- LaViolette/Willmott

Morning:

  1. Sexual humiliation (Travis as the victim). The ‘dildo with a heartbeat’ comment is just one in a long tirade and AL doesn’t base her conclusions on just one comment. Sixteen days before that Travis had phone sex and said he wanted to visit her. May 2 he sent a text about a photo shoot fantasy and was very graphic. Therefore he wasn’t humiliated.
  2. Interview with JM was in Mesa and AL didn’t bring all the boxes of info with her from Ca. The ‘shot in closet’ was in her notes but she now claims JA did not tell her this. It was not “…a big factor in determining domestic violence. AL was not interested in details of the murder and said: “…I made a mistake.”
  3. Matt and Bianca were still dating when JA went to see her. It was ‘not a hostile, angry confrontation’ and JA didn’t call/contact her after that.
  4. The cut finger from cutting apples was a second hand story and was told when JA was still lying about the killing.
  5. JA was not clear about where the knife was and ‘couldn’t remember after the attack at all.’
  6. JA wasn’t jealous as she was pursuing Ryan and others on LDS Link-up.
  7. JW brings up the abuser gets fearful when their partner is trying to leave and this is the most dangerous time. Travis did say in his journal that her moving away would be better for both of them. There was nothing about Travis fearing JA in his journals.
  8. ‘Proof” he was a pedo:

–       Sent her boys underwear (and mentioned in a text).

–       She was clean shaven (waxed) as he preferred.

–       He though pigtails were hot.

–       Had her dress as a schoolgirl.

–       Comment on sex tape about the 12 year old girl.

–       He liked ‘porking the pot of a little girl’ (??)

–       She caught him masturbating to pics of little boys.

  1. JA was with Matt for 2 years and Derryl for 4. They remained friends. She was close to Derryl’s son. JW: “Ever see them accuse her of being a liar?’ AL “No.”

10. Regarding stalking and Travis being in fear: It was just one statement and AL doesn’t rely on just one statement.

11. Travis’ truthfulness:

-Lied about his virginity to the church.

-Portrayed self as a virgin.

-Priesthood holder who didn’t follow the laws of the church.

-Lied to friends and family (re-virgin).

-Dated Lisa and JA at the same time.

-Abusive men hide there abuse from work and family. (So many don’t believe the person really did these things).

-Abuser will be rage-full to those closest to them.

-He had a lot to lose in business and with the Hughes’.

-JA was the only one who knew of his secret life.

      12.  JA’s truthfulness:

              -Lies started after the killing.

              -Lied about being there, then 2 intruders.

      JW: “Do those define her…”AL: “No, they don’t. If (she) was a really goon liar she would have planned a really good lie and she didn’t.”

 

Afternoon session-Jury questions and answers-

This will take me until later tonight to compile. I will post as soon as I am done.