- Please explain why you feel Jodi is not manipulative either before or after the killing based on the review of statements and interviews.
Based on the information that I have, (ummm) I don’t see a pattern of manipulation the way I would define it. (umm)I haven’t seen that in terms of her trying to… (uh) and I’m not sure exactly what this is in reference to so it’s a hard question for me to answer but I think anybody can be manipulative. What I look for are patterns and I didn’t see them in the materials that I read in terms of her relationship with Mr. A. so I’m not sure how else to answer that.
**OK- I will skip the ‘uhs,’ ‘ums’ etc. Just so you know her sentences don’t always make sense. I also might paraphrase or skip a tangent. I will put ‘>>>’ when I skip tangents…and this is close to a transcript- paraphrased somewhat.
- On the one side, we have demeaning multiple verbal slurs, a slap, a shove, a chokehold and a lunge perpetrated on Jodi. On the other, we have a gunshot to the head, a 4” deep slit throat and close to 30 stab wounds delivered by Jodi to Travis. Is not the perpetrator of the greatest domestic violence Jodi?
I think what happened to Mr. A. is horrific <Objection> I think that self-defense <O> Judge repeats: Is not the perpetrator of the greatest DV Jodi? (waiting…) “No.”
3. In the hypothetical given by Mr. Martinez is it possible Travis was the one who told Jodi he wanted her to leave…if that were true then isn’t it likely Travis never hit her that day? I can only go on the materials that I’ve read, (that were available to me) and when I look at that…ya know I don’t have face to face corroboration that he hit her that day. What I have is evidence that as she began to pull away things escalated.
4. When Jodi went to confront Bianca about being with Matt can’t that be seen as she did it because she was jealous? It could be seen that way. (Repeat). The nature of the confrontation didn’t seem to be hostile. From either Jodi’s report Mr’ McCartney’s …so in that way she could have been motivated by jealousy but the confrontation or the talk didn’t seem to be hostile.
5. Jodi went through Travis’ emails, messages and inbox (MySpace). Did you take any of that into consideration when making your assessment? Yes I did.
6. You bought Miss Arias books, apologized upon meeting her, and ordered her a magazine subscription. Did you do anything else to establish a relationship with Jodi? Simply talking to her and meeting with her>>>spending the hours talking in jail with her but no, nothing else.
7. Have you given her anything else? No I haven’t. Have you ever had any physical contact with her? Hugs, friendly touching etc? I don’t think so, I might have touched her arm…in jail there’s a screen… and that was my meetings with Jodi…other than what you see in court.
8. How do you know Jodi received spider man underwear from Travis on Valentines day? Did you see them? Pictures? Or anything else? The only thing I saw was the text message…she was bringing the Spiderman underwear.
9. How many men have you testified for in criminal court? I haven’t testified much in Criminal Court>>>so 1 or 2.
10. If you had been given access to everything except interviews with Jodi how would your opinion have varied, if at all? I think that um, well, I could have come to the same conclusion because part of what I read about the interactions between JA and TA, other women and TA, the Hughes’s responses, parts of his journals, first page of MySpace, and collateral interviews.
11. Would you have adjusted your belief in the level of abuse if you had been given access to everything except the interviews with Jodi? No because given my experience (and those she works with) the level of psychological abuse and character assassination was incredibly high in this case. (Gives example).
12. Other than what Jodi has told you, in what other sources did you see evidence of physical violence by Travis? I actually didn’t see other evidences of physical violence by TA, other than what JA told me.
14. Would your analysis of this relationship change if, hypothetically speaking, you found out the stories of Travis being violent and masturbating to children were made up? I would still rely on what I knew about the psychological abuse- (she goes into her working with victims) ….they say psychological abuse is worse than physical.
15. Regarding non-verbal communication, do you think that you can read through a string of text messages, emails etc between two people and know exactly what the non-verbal communication is? No.
16. How do you know tone, meaning, inside jokes etc. if you cannot get both sides of the story? Well there would be no way for me to interview Mr. A. but I read so much of what he put together (she talks about history –written documents) …rely on the written evidence and I had a fair amount that I relied on.
17. You said other sources said Jodi was not manipulative, who are these sources? Mr. McCartney and Mr. Brewer (previous boyfriends) she had longer term relationships with and when she was older I didn’t read about her being manipulative to her sisters or brothers…there was this period when she was young and a teenager (teens can be manipulative) …but as an adult I didn’t hear her described that way at all.
18. When interviewing Jodi you claimed you did not asking leading questions. If someone asks a simple question that elicits a simple y/n response, would you consider that a leading question? Gosh I’ve been asked a lot of y/n questions and I think they’re questions, I don’t think they’re leading questions. … I work very hard not to do that.
19. You say Travis has no indication of being stalked. He displays no fearful behavior and continues his contact with Jodi of his own accord. How do you reconcile Jodi’s claim of DV if she continues her contact with Travis of her own accord…where was her fearful behavior? Domestic Violence and stalking… tend to be different. …Battered women go back and forth…you don’t see people leave and stay gone and their fear develops over a longer time. Stalking- fear tends to develop in a shorter time…real stalking occurs when end of the relationship. And no more contact is desired. >>>
20. Do you consider someone who says: “no jury will ever convict me” to be a person with low self esteem? It sounds like a really foolish statement to me…I don’t know what to say about self esteem but it doesn’t seem like a good statement to make…
21. How can you say that Jodi and Travis’ relationship was abuse with no proof other than name calling on paper and Jodi’s word? It’s the degree of name calling and putting down, the level of escalation. And the words of his 2 closest friends, his relations with other women…so it’s not just from JA’s words>>>those kind of words I don’t think anyone would want their daughter called those kind of words>>>they would see it as abusive.
22. Do you handle cases where the female is the abuser? Yes I do.
23. Did Travis discuss abuse of Jodi or any other women in his journal entries? No, he didn’t.
24. In all the evidence you reviewed, was there any indication anywhere of Travis claiming stalking by anyone else other than Jodi? No, I don’t believe so.
25. Of the times you have testified in other cases, how many of these were in def. of men? Not just criminal, I’ve also worked in family law…of the 18 times I’ve testified that I have worked 3 or 4 and defense has a broader brush… referrals I’ve had men accused of beating their wife and children and I’ve worked with the attorney and also intervention// (//means Mr. Martinez objected and the Judge moved on to the next question)
26. What is the manifesto you referred to during your testimony? I actually don’t know because I’ve never seen it.
27. Is there a type of stalking… that a person is comfortable around someone in person but are afraid of them or what they are capable of when they are not around?
There’s …when you look at abuse…and battering…when moving apart and coming back together – there’s disbelief the relationship is going to end. There might even be a protective order, they might meet again for dinner- very common. Still some back and forth, that’s not stalking. Once the stalker realizes you mean business…that’s when their behavior will escalate and get worse.
28. When speaking of blackmail and being threatened, are you aware that Jodi threatened Travis by saying she would let out that he was a pedophile? I was not aware of that. Does that mean anything to you? Yes, of course it means something to me, yes.
29. You stated it would be beneficial for Jodi to write things she was lying about in her journal, to buck up her story. How would she write about these things if her story didn’t change until well after the killing hypothetically speaking? If she had planned something …on being separate from Travis, it seems like she would use, she would be building up a story that would use all this. I don’t see a plan here to separate from Travis and build a self-defense case.
30. Regarding the text from Travis to Jodi where he is upset about her BS story from Michelle or Elena, what exactly was the BS story that Jodi told Travis? The ‘B.S. story’ the woman came into the restaurant and told Jodi that Travis was with Lisa…(which was true). Where did you get this info? ….came from the communications. What Jodi gave me and what Lisa wrote, so it wasn’t a B.S. Story.
You stated that Travis was the one lying in this message, how do you know this for sure? Because I read the information from Lisa…so there was corroboration. How can you know that Jodi’s B.S. story was not a lie? (Not the subject but the actual story that was told.) I can’t I don’t know the story that was told to Travis.
31. You seem to believe that when the argument began between Jodi and Travis prior to the Havasupai trip that he called her upstairs that he only wanted to pursue an argument. How do you know he didn’t want to get the issue resolved and calm her and may have been embarrassed in front of the Freemans? I don’t know that and I didn’t use heavily in my assessment.
32. Can you explain how Ms. Arias can remember physical abuse incidents so vividly but does not write anything, not even a reference to her feelings, in her journal? About the incidents? (Judge re-reads) I believe, well, there were different places she wrote references to her feelings…I can’t explain what somebody does…can’t explain what they don’t write down.
33. You testified writings could have supported her statements however, is it possible the incidents of abuse reported by Jodi were reported after the fact as a secondary gain to benefit her? That’s possible, that’s possible. I didn’t rely just rely on her oral or verbal report.
34. Do you have any evidence other than Jodi’s word that Travis made her tear out pages and write only positive thoughts? No I didn’t.
35. Who, from Jodi’s past did you interview that were able to rule out Jodi’s manipulative behavior being a pattern? I wasn’t able to interview anyone from her past directly. I was given the interviews that were done at the beginning. There were at least reviewed 20 collaterals, more collateral sources in this case than any case I’ve worked on.
36. You told us that you like to meet with each individual before analyzing the relationship. We have heard Jodi’s side of the story. Can you tell us Travis’ side of the story? Well, by law I can’t interview// Travis’ family. I obviously can’t interview Mr. A. I had 7 hours of unedited footage regarding Mr. A. that people spoke very well of him…with friends and family. Looked at some of the things he did. He was kind and generous, he made people laugh and motivated people. I didn’t feel he was a one-dimensional human being. I feel that there were very good parts of Mr. A.>>> Mr. A had some outstanding traits.
37. You mentioned that stalking could fall under the abuse and battery columns in your continuum. If that is true why is stalking excluded from those columns? Actually because when I talk about that in training I call that normal stalking – neither party believes each other>>>pull back and forth…common for someone to get a protective order and the partner believes they can keep pushing…until actually enforces the P.O. that they change their mind…they know that they mean business. Is your continuum incomplete? Why not list all the appropriate bullet points for the appropriate column? Yes, my continuum is incomplete. It is. I’m messing with it all the time. (Goes on …dead sea scroll…framework…)
38. You stated that you have chosen not to take cases in the past because you did not believe an individual. Did you take this case, in part, because you believed Jodi? Yes. If you did not believe her would you have chosen to turn it down? Yes.
If you start out believing in an individual doesn’t that, by default, set up prejudices towards their partner? No, because I’ve had cases where as I’ve pursued them I’ve found them not credible and I’ve talked to the attornies …if I don’t find enough credible evidence I don’t testify>>>I don’t have a great retirement after 34 years //
39. You stated that regarding anger, it is more common for someone to have a burst of anger, then calm down. Is it possible that Travis’ rants seem longer because they are being viewed in text form? Actually they go on over a period of 2-3 hours which is pretty long and then follow up with the other// There were long rants, the longest to me was 2-3 hours- I Think it was the 5/26th, date not as important as the context, there was a follow-up>>> this went on for another, I think for 16 pages or something like that…it’s an extensive length of time.
40. Can you explain what you mean by a burst of anger? Can a 10 or 20 minute rant be described as a burst? A 10-20 minute could be described as a burst. What you look at (gives example of a case) is what’s in that burst.
41. If a couple has an argument that takes all day to end can they still be in a healthy relationship? Yes, absolutely. Would that type of argument indicate abuse? It wouldn’t indicate abuse at all.
42. Is it possible for 2 people to be abusive to each other? Yes.
43. Don’t you believe that Travis making comments about a 12 year old girl while having a phone sex conversation with Jodi is fundamentally different than Travis allegedly masturbating to photos of young boys? I think it’s different it’s just an unusual comment to make from a 30 year old man about a 12 year old girl.
44. Would you characterize your knowledge of June 4, 2008, as light or incomplete? I think some of the details of where something happened I’m clearer on it now but I knew in general what happened. I was focused on what led up to June 4th and what happened June 4th.
45. Are you confused on any of the details of that afternoon? Well I was, I said that I believed that the shot was fired in the closet and it wasn’t. I think I know most of he detail. some of the dates where something happened..I was focused on what led up to June 4th and what happened June 4th.
46. Do you think it is deceptive for someone to not share the most private and intimate details of their lives, like their sexual activities, with their friends and family or do you consider it normal to keep those things private? I think most people keep the details of their sexual lives private. If normal, why do you think Travis’ attempts to keep those things private is deceptive? I don’t think him keeping his private life, his sexual life is deceptive. I think putting himself out as someone who obeys the Laws of Chastity and is a 30 year old virgin is deceptive.
47. Did you ever see evidence that Jodi was openly sharing all of her most private sexual details with her friends and family? No, I didn’t. Would you consider that deceptive? No, I don’t. She never claimed to be a virgin. Certainly she was part of the Mormon faith and not going along with the Laws of Chastity.
48. You say Jodi’s lies started after she killed Travis, how could you possibly know this? I can only go on the reports of people in her life prior to that, once again primarily the 2 men that she spent most of her adult life with when in her 20’s (Matt & Derryl) neither described her as a liar.
49. Do you believe that Jodi was subjected to sexual degradation at the hands of Travis? I believe she participated in the relationship, went along with things >> wanted to be in that relationship and went further than she should.
50. You stated that you saw no signs of Travis being sexually degraded by Jodi. Noting his desire to see her in Ca., his actions on the sex call and various texts, i-m’s etc. Couldn’t that same argument be made regarding Jodi’s alleged sexual degradation given her desire to see Travis, her actions on the sex call, etc? Yes, I’ve not heard Jodi say she was sexually degraded and humiliated…not heard her testimony…hasn’t made claims of that.
51. Considering only the written conversations and journals (excluding the interview with Jodi) did you see abuse? Please explain. I’m confused by that – I’m thinking it’s about Jodi’s journals and 2 interviews, if I excluded those things, I would still see that as abuse. What level would you place that abuse? The verbal abuse was in battering>>> Definitely battery.
52. Considering only the journals, did you see an escalation? Oh, yeah, I saw an escalation over time the rants longer, put-downs are worse. Him talking about his own anger being scary.
53. You mentioned Travis was in a 7-year relationship with Deanna. Are you aware of anyone interviewing her to determine if she was a victim or survivor? I don’t know of any interview with Deanna. I didn’t see anything that indicated that she was a survivor of abuse. Did you interview her? No, I did not.
54. You keep saying that Jodi doesn’t match your definition of manipulative. Is it possible that your definition of manipulation differs from others? Yes, yes it is. Is it possible that your definition is wrong? Sure.
55. Yesterday you mentioned Jodi’s behavior towards her mother. Do you honestly believe that hitting and kicking your parents are normal behavior at any age? No, I don’t believe I said it was normal teenage behavior. I said it was not appropriate teenage behavior. But it is behavior teenagers do. I don’t think it’s good behavior.
The summary for after these questions will follow.
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