Transcribed by: Sandra Huskey-Matthews
1) Did Mr. Alexander pay for the majority of your trips?
No, they were all split 50/50
2) If he did pay was that a factor in you questioning his choices, such as introduction to others and sleeping arrangements?
He made all of the iteneraries for our trips, but we split the cost 50/50
3) Was it his money, his choices?
It was his choices on the church history trips, because he knew what would be signifigant. I believe the choices were mutual as far as “the list” of 1000 places, sometimes it WAS his money and I would make it up to him through housekeeping, sometimes it was my money and he would pay me back.
4) Why did you put the camera in the washer?
I don’t have memory of that, don’t know why I would do that.
5) Did you ever take pictures of yourself after he hit you?
No, I did not.
6) Why did you call the cops on the EX that shook you, but never called the cops on Travis?
Well that was when he tried to break my forearm, it seemed logical, I tried to get to the phone. I never did with Travis because the prior experience he grabbed the phone out of my hand and hung it up. It was a very negative experience, he told me to shut up, they were going to call back. They did call back, he created an excuse as to why 911 was accidently dialed. blah, blah, And he would make up for it in ways that Bobby didn’t.
7) Why would you continue to sleep with Travis after learning of his child porn issues?
That was not a side of Travis that he wanted to even exist and of course I didn’t want it to exist. He had told me…
OBJECTION HEARSAY. Sustained.
I was under the impression that when he was able to sleep with a woman, as opposed to fantasizing about a child he felt like more normal as a man.Blah, blah, part of him we wanted to eradicate.
8) Why didn’t you just change your Gmail password so Travis could not get into it anymore?
It didn’t really become a problem right away, we had exchanged our passwords and so it stayed that way for many months, after I moved it became a problem. Eventually I did change my passwords, however, on (blah, blah) May 22, 2008 we had a conversation about how were weren’t going to do that anymore. after that, To my knowledge I didn’t log into his, and I don’t think he attempted to log into mine.
9) Did Travis’ closet doors have locks on them?
I don’t remember them having any locks.
10) If no, how did you have time to get the gun down if he was right behind you?
I don’t remember if he was right behind me or not, I just had a sense that he was chasing me.
11) Did you record other phone sex conversations?
12) Ryan Burns testified that you met at a PPL event in April 2008 and you had blonde hair, how is that possible if you dyed it in March 2008? I did not meet Ryan in April, I met him in March. Convention is in March, he got it wrong.
13) Why did you feel so uncomfortable about anal sex with Travis, when you had previously tried it?
In my previous relationships, it was only something we had tried one time, maybe two. And Those were long term relationships, it was not a part of the “bedroom curriculum” because it was uncomfortable. That was Travis’ preference and I got the KY to make it less uncomfortable.
14) You took pictures of the shirt and shorts, did you take pictures of the spiderman underwear? If no, why not?
I did not take pictures of those, because that is embarrassing, as opposed to the shorts and shirt that were sentimental to me. I didn’t want to memorialize boys underwear, and I didn’t want people to know that was a preference of his, and that I was dumb enough to go along with that prefrence.
15) You told Darryl that you wanted to abstain from sex until marriage, if that were the case, then why have sex with Travis?
My understanding at the time (blah, blah) Did not want to ask young kids (missionaries) about the Law of Chastity. Travis explained it to me that vaginal sex was off limits, and everything else was not as agreegist to that law.
16) Travis stated in the phone conversation that he did not like spiderman, so why did he buy you those underwear if he did not like that character?
I do not know why, but I do know that the year prior, he, there was a child he was close with that really liked spiderman. I don’t know if that had anything to do with it, he liked to dress up..
17) Why would you tell Leslie that you wanted your kids to play with Travis’ kids, if you felt Travis was into younger children?
I made this statement on June 5th, and I wanted to Edify Travis only in good ways at that point, I didn’t want to say anything bad. blah, blah
18) If you had bruises that were visable after the April 2008 incident, why is it that no one said anything to you about those bruises?
That’s not true, the same day it occured a PPL associate made a joke about it, i had make up on, I got beet red, it was embarrassing, Matt was confrontational, I put more make up on, foundation, cover up, that I was putting on them from that point on.
19) If you are so nearsighted how were you able to drive?
I never had a problem driving. When I was on the freeway… I could see…I had to get close to see signs but as far as I knew that was normal vision, I had never had glasses in my life. In 2010 I put on someones glasses, and I didn’t even know you could see the world that way, everything was sharp. Thats when I realized I needed glasses.
20) In Travis’ TXT to Jodi #12308 exhibit #444 he talks about the mysterious man who wrote for you, who is this man, and why is he bringing it up?
That man would be Steve Carrel, he wrote me a very nice email, it went to my gmail account, which Travis read, I tried to explain myself, I said I never even met him so I guess he thought he was a mysterious man, I had never met Steve, that’s what I told him and it led to a big fight.
21) Did Travis think this was someone you lied about?
I think he did, the way he postured his words.
22) You took a picture of the shirt and shorts and not the underwear, why did you take this picture so much later?
They were taken in July, I knew my time was winding down. By then I had rumors that said I was obsessed and all these things, I thought if someone finds these it does look a little strange to have a shirt that says his name, and across the back of the shorts, I didn’t want them to be found, I knew I was going to get arrested. But, they were sentimental to me. So I still wanted to memorialize them, in some way. So I layed them out and photographed them, because they were special to me.
23) You testified that Travis gave you The Book of Mormon at Starbucks, did you read it thoroughly, if so, when?
I did read it thoroughly, I attempted to read one chapter a day, I think I finished it in about 8 months. Also read it in 2008, 2009, 2010 a chapter a day, starting in January, haven’t done it since. 24) Does the Book of Mormon go into detail about the Vow of Chasity?Doesn’t go into explicit detail, it uses verbage such as whoredoms, things like that, “being unclean” in reference to sexual sin. It does reference those things are considered sinful.
25) Who initiated contact after the various break ups with Bobby, Matt, Darryl and Travis?
Start with Bobby..With Bobby, we broke up and got together so many times, it would be hard to say what times when. One time I was packing all my things , leaving, packed my car, was driving away, (explains the size of town, how Bobby had NOTHING) so I sorta initiated contact, I went to the grocery store and bought him groceries, took them to his house and left them on the door. He called me back, he knew it was me, he likes certain types of food and I got him those kinds.
Juror is having problems with his audio device.
Resuming after juror audio problem. Continuing with same question.
25) Who initiated contact after the various breakups with, Bobby, Matt, Darryl and Travis, begin with Bobby?
Bobby – we had many breakups and got back together in our two year period. It was kinda both, but the one time .. (insert extras about him cheating on me, it wasn’t that time) I guess it was me. I new he had nothing, so I bought him groceries, left them on his porch, so he could have something to eat. He called my grandmother’s house, and thanked me, so we picked up again, sort of…we never really stopped contacting each other until we stopped for good. After we did break up, he sent me email, I called him, we weren’t unfriendly, but was not a “get back together” conversation.
Matt – I, we broke up, after I confronted , sorta confronted him. I went to his dad’s house and he was there, he was on the phone with Bianca, so he already knew what I was there to talk about. We went in to my car to “chit chat” and discuss this. There were a lot of tears, we knew we were done, were broken up. My heart was broken so what I did was I wrote out a long letter to him, it was an email, I typed it out and sent it to him, just so he would know where my heart was, my thoughts etc. and where I felt that maybe he.. He Did error, so it wasn’t like I was trying to innitiate contact again, but I did inniti… I did send him that. Kinda just my good bye email. I don’t know how it came about that he ended up coming to Ventana with me, he was looking for seasonal work and ( insert extras about him being with Bianca) so Darryl hired him.
Darryl – As far as Darryl, there was really no seperation, becaue when I broke up with him, we still had the same house together, we had seperate bedrooms but would see each other coming and going. (had two jobs different scheduals etc sometimes we saw each other) we stopped being intimate then he moved away, and we kept contacting each other about bills and such, I felt bad because I didn’ t have money. Generally it was that, so, but I’ve initiated contace since, I’ve stopped by to visit his son and him, later on in 2008.
Travis – As far as Travis, we broke up over the phone on June 29th, 2007 and I dont remember, I think he called me the next day, from Chris and Skye’s house we had a conversation and it was less dramatic, more like normal, and it ended up turning sexual. So that proceeded that way. I continued to contact him as well.
26) How far is Crater Lake from Ashland?
I want to say 70 miles. .. but I’m guessing, theres a freeway sign somewhere in that area that says Crater Lake 70 miles.
27) How far is Medford from Crater Lake?
It’s a similar distance, blah, blah, triangle, about the same distance and driving time.
28) How far is Medford from Ashland?
Not sure of exact milage but takes 10 to 15 minutes on the freeway.
29)How did you know Victor’s family ?
Victor Arias, my ex boyfriend in Costa Rica, well I moved, didn’t move there, went on an exchange program, so I lived there for a few weeks in the summer, Victor was in that household at the time, and that’s how we met and that’s how I knew his family. When I went back the second time, it was to spend time with his family. Victor had moved out and moved on by that point.
30)Please explain again the events that led up to your dad slapping you during the incident you described earlier?
Not sure if you mean when he knocked me out, but I will describe the one where he slapped me twice. I snuck out of the house, I shouldn’t have, the whole family was moving to Yreka , I was very upset about it, Yreka’s a small town , when your going into high school it doesnt sound exciting to live there. Snuck out to spend more time with friends. Sneaking out was against the rules. My parents found out, I believe because the dog got in ….blah, blah, .. they were asleep when I got back, I went to sleep, they woke me up very early. He asked where I’d been, I think I said, “I don’t know” and he smacked me. He sat me up, asked me again, I think I gave the same answer, and he wasn’t happy with whatever I said, and he smacked me again.
31) What is your relationship with your mother like today?
It is very complicated, and it is very strained, we rub each other the wrong way, all day long, but nonetheless there is a deep love there . I think there are very few individuals that I love as much as I love my mom. Strained, very painful, love her a lot.
32) What is your relationship with your father like today?
Its not very close but I have unconditional love for him. I find it’s better when interact a little bit less .. I don’t know, I think our personalities don’t jive, maybe because I think he’s kind of a negative person, or if it’s becaue I’m negative, I don’t know. Not trying to blame him , it hurts me don’t like to go there very often.
33) Would it be possible to have Jodi run through the floor plan from the attach on June 4, 2008 using exhibit #249 ?
Floor plan placed on overhead ,
“Can you move it up? Down” a little bit more” blah, blah.. “you’re going to have to move it again” Does it focus out more? yeah , okay, It might have to be moved again, cause the bathroom is long…(spends almost 4 minutes going over the same thing as before, barely using the floorplan, as they asked and throwing in ” here was where I remember him cursing at me” and “here he was saying a 5 yr old could hold it better etc. )
34) Reguarding the 9mm gun you purchased on July 1, 2008. You mentioned a camping trip, who was going on the camping trip?
Two dishwashers from Purple Plum, (explains purple plum) Kalvin (explains Kalvin) Then remembers he may not have been a dishwasher, might have been a customer, was at the resturant all the time. Another guy, don’t remember his name, he was very tall, explains how she knew him. Oh, and a few other people. That’s all I can say about that.
35) Why were you planning on going, if you were scared?
I wasn’t scared, I was just being cautious. People I knew, but wasn’t well aquainted with, I would rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. I had seen like a new side of what a man could do…so I wanted to be extra careful. I mean, being out there with a group of men. Umm I think maybe some women were coming too, but I don’t know, at that point, I was the only “girl” on the trip.
36) Were you paid for the interview with 48 hours?
No, no, I never asked for compensation, and they never offered.
37) Were you paid for the interview with Inside Edition?
The same, no. Someone encouraged me to ask because they had paid her $50, but I did not ask.
38 ) In an interview with Detective Flores exhibit #503, you talked to him about taking photos of Travis while he was shaving, at some point you state, he must have liked it because he used it on his myspace page, can you explain what he used?
He used the photo that was displayed yesterday as his profile picture, (goes on to explain what this means, blah, blah even photo albums and other accounts? )
39) You stated that you tried to call Matt and Darryl about your change in plans reguarding going to Mesa, But said they did not answer, why didn’t you just leave them messages or TXT them?
When I called them it wasn’t about my change in plans, it was to see if I had left my phone charger there. blah, blah, wouldnt have told Darryl, snub him, sensitive to his feelings, and Matt had very, very , very negative opinions about Travis. He would have been very against it.
40) You said you reported your cell phone lost in May 2008, when and where was it found?
I reported it to the Yreka police as stolen, blah, blah, grandpa’s car, Chinese takeout, don’t lock doors. Stolen was my conclusion.(Jodi asks what was the rest of the question?) It was found in 2010, in my grandfather’s car, my aunt found it, actually she’s sitting right over there in the front row. She gave it to my grandmother..
Objection (Defense) Sustained.
41) Have you taken long trips, such as the one from CA to AZ to UT in June 2008, in the past?
Can you repeat that?
Only along highways I was familiar with such as..(explains where she has driven, and cites she knows all along the way, etc )
42) How often did you take such trips?
I like to do road trips. Travis and I …
Objection (Procescution) Not answering the question, question is “how often”
Jodi “How often?”
Judge repeats question.
I wouldn’t know an exact number.
43) On the trips you took, did you take extra gas cans with you?
Only after I moved to the desert. Darryl was like…we are from the coast, blah, blah, total shock, we began to carry water, and if long distance gas cans blah, blah, because Darryl wanted to.
44) If you took gas cans with you, where did you get them?
I got two, the two gas cans I took on that trip, I got from Darryl. Then I bought a third one, determined I didn’t need it, and returned it.
(Judge) I think the question is referring to in the past, when you took gas cans with you, where did you get them?
They were Darryl’s
45) In your testimony you said that Travis had hit your car once, can you tell us about that incident?
Yes, that was the incident in May 2007, spent two days at Disneyland, went to Getti’s Center (?) because it’s on the list, our purpose for going, five or six lanes, tons of traffic, bumper to bumper, not going. Inch along, inch along, inch along. He grew very impatient, frustrated and angry. Began yelling at drivers.. etc. beating steering wheel, beating door with his fist.
46) Why did you confront Travis, after seeing him with another woman through his backyard window, if it was not due to jealousy?
I felt like he had been making an effort, um, this was right after he had, um, we had just slept together consentually, we went all the way, and he said “I love you” and all these things, so I felt like we were getting back together, and when I saw that, it seemed in contrast to what he had been telling me for a month, month and a half.My intention was to go there…
Objection (prosecution) Not answering the question, she was asked why she confronted him.
Jodi “I’m explaining why I went over there”
Judge “You may continue”
My intention was to go there to find out where we stood. Did he still want to try this, did he have any girlfriends, if he had a girlfriend that was fine, I just wanted to know, is all.
47) If you simply wanted to know where you stood, because he was courting you back, why were you so upset that you needed to call your father about the incident the next day?
I didn’t want to call my father, I wanted to call my sister, my little sister, her and I talk, were realitively close, we talk about stuff like that “It’s a girl thing” So I called my parent’s home because she lived there. She wasn’t home but my dad answered, he could tell that maybe I was sad. So I started to talk to him. The reason I was sad….was because Travis and I were getting back together…
48) You mentioned an earlier failed attempt using rope during a sexual encounter, can you tell us what happened that day, when this occurred, and how Travis handled the failure?
Jodi “Judge I didn’t…. that question, I thought that last question was about why I was so upset that I had to call my father…so I explained why I was upset..
“Judge (??) Okay, Your attorney will have a chance to follow up”
Jodi “Okay, thank you”
Yes, he handled it just fine, he didn’t get upset, we just stopped, we used twine, and it was scratchy, and not cutting my wrists, but abrasive, somewhat painful, at that point he just cut the twine off with a knife as well.
49) Did Travis’ dog usually bark when someone came into the house?
Yes, if the dog heard the door open, he was very animated. Would bark very loud.
50) Did the dog usually bark with loud unexplained noises?
Typically, only if the door bell rang or someone knocked at the front door.
51) Why would you stay with someone who had sex with you while you were sleeping?
At that point, May 2007, I was in love with Travis, and it didn’t make a difference to me, honestly. I was in love with him, my only concern, was I beleived from a spiritual and religous perspective, I believed our realationship would not be blessed if we acted that way, as in vaginal sex. That was my belief at the time.
52) When did you find out that Travis had a gun?
I found out in fall of 2007, when I was cleaning his shelves, I had different projects, and it was around the fall, I don’t remember if it was Oct or Nov, but it was around that time.
53) To your knowledge, did police ever find your grandfather’s gun that was stolen?
To my knowlege, no, none of the property that was stolen from the house wasn’t recovered.
54) Why did you place Travis’ body back in the shower?
I could only speculate, because I don’t remember, I could speculate on who that I know that I am, or thought I was,
Objection (prosecution) speculation
Sustained “So don’t answer the question”
55) Do you know what time you left Travis’ house on June, 4, 2008 ?
I don’t remember the exact time, but as far as daytime,
Objection (prosecution) speculation
56) What happened to the clothes you were wearing on June 4, 2008?
I don’t remember, I was in clothes when I came to, and I don’t .
.Objection (prosecution) speculation
57) You say Travis’ had attacked you before June 2008, but would apologize to you after he did it, so why was the June 4, 2008 incident so different?
June 4th was escalated and he always apologized afterward on prior occasions, on prior occasions I never feared for my life, and even when he was choking me out and I was loosing conscienceness, I didn’t have time to fear for my life, I passed out. It wasn’t until after that incident, when I reflected back on it, I realized I could have died. If he could take it that far, and he was as angry as he was, I percieved very clearly that he was trying to get back on top of me again and that freaked me out, I was scared out of my mind.
58) You and Travis’ continued to talk on the phone, after you moved back to Yreka, including phone sex, would it be fair to say, you were upset that he was taking another woman to Cancun?
Ummmm, No ! Um, I was not upset, I wasn’t upset at all actually, Cancun was planned almost a year before, he was taking a babysitter I thought, I didn’t learn that he was taking Mimi Hall until long afterwards,
Objection (prosecution) can’t hear why
59) Why did you send his grandmother flowers?
In retrospect, it probably wasn’t a good idea, but I felt that it would be more insensitive to not do it at all.
60) Why did you take the rope and gun with you?
There were a lot of actions I took that day, that I don’t remember, um, but as far as disposing of it, I knew that something bad had happened. I knew that something, I felt that I had done something wrong.
61) Did you lock Travis’ door when you left on June 4 2008?
I don’t remember anything of that nature. That whole time gap, I don’t know.
62) Did you try and clean up the scene after you left on June 4 2008?
Based on the evidence, I believe I did um, maybe make some kind of attempt, but I don’t recall doing that.
63) If you climbed on the shelf to grab the gun in a hurry, how is it that nothing was disorganized in Travis’ closet?
I only had to step on the edge with my foot, I put up one foot, well, it’s a shelf, so I only had to grip the edge, and then grab it. So, it’s not quite as tall as it appeared in the photo, you just put one foot on the edge, grab the other, and your up like two or three feet already, I grabbed the gun with my right hand, I believe, I don’t know right or left, probably right, and then ran out the door.
64) If you shot Travis first, how did the casing land on blood?
I don’t believe it landed on blood, when the gunshot went off.
Overuled, you may continue
I do know that we struggled, so, something could have happened subsequent to that, but to my knowledge there was no blood in that bathroom, before that gunshot went off.
65) After you shot Travis, why not run out of the house to get away?
Initially that was my attempt, thats why I started running down the hall, the bedroom doors were closed.
Objection – In her ealier statement she said after she shot him, she didn’t rememberJ
odi – No, I said it got foggy after I shot him.
Overuled, you may continue.
Maybe I misunderstood the question, I thought you meant after I got body slammed, is that …
Judge repeats question.
Okay, I’m sorry, that is correct, after I shot him, I didn’t know I had shot him, but after the gun went off, he lungd, after he lunged at me, we fell over, and he was trying to get on top of me. It’s hard to describe the fear. It was like mortal terror, it really was, he was trying to get on top of me, and then he threatened my life, I thought he had intentions to kill me. So, I don’t remember any specifics, of what happened right after that point.
66) Why didn’t you call 911?
I was very scared of what would happen to me. I was scared at that point of what was going to happen. I knew that, well I felt that I had done something wrong. I don’t really have an adequite explanation for my state of mind, I just know, I knew that something really bad had happened, and I was scared.
67) If Travis attacked you on June 4th, why not just tell the police the truth from the start?
That one is kind of a complicated answer, I didn’t want people to know the kinds of things that were going on in our relationship, I felt that if I told police that Travis’ attacked me, I would have to give an explanation of why he attacked me, I would have to go back through the different incidents we had gone through, and how those things didn’t really begin until I walked in on him. I believe they were related, and i didn’t ever want to go there. So it was all convoluted, and I thought by saying that, I thought that would open the door to that, to that, to that, and I didn’t want to deedify him, I didn’t want, was embarrassed about a lot of those things, and ashamed, I was also very scared about, whether I was defending myself or not, I felt like it was wrong to kill somebody, reguardless of the circumstances.
68) Were you kneeling when you dropped the camera?
Yes, I was kneeling on one knee I think.
69) When Travis stepped out of the shower to attack you, were you wet?
70) If so, did he slip at all on the bathroom tile, or in the hallway?
I didn’t see him, but the tile is slick when it’s wet.
71) When entering the closet, why didn’t you just go open the door closest to you?
My intention was not to run into the closet, when I rolled away my intention was to run out of the room, I didn’t make a decision to go into the closet, until I realized that by going left, I kinda, well, went back to that moment, when he caught my wrist, last time, I intended to run left, and I would have to open the door, it would swing open this way, I would have to go this way, and if I went down the hall, I would have to go this way. It just seemed, split second decision, it seemed easier or faster, to run in there, and slam the door, and then there was an exit, I knew it wasn’t a dead end. There was another door there that I could run out of.
72) Do you know how high the ceiling in Travis’ closet was?
73) Was the gun in a case, or just laying on the shelf?
I don’t remember how it was on June 4th, when I first discovered it, I don’t recall seeing a holster of any kind, but, Travis did have one for it. I don’t remember on June 4th.
74) Why is it that you have no memory of stabbing Travis?
I can’t really explain why my mind did what it did , maybe because it’s too horrible, I don’t know. I really don’t know the answer to why I blacked out, or why I have memory gaps of much of that day.
75) Whether you had plans to commit suicide or not, why say “A jury will never convict me, mark my words because I am innocent” in the interview?
Well, I was very confident that no jury would convict me, because I was going to be dead. As far as saying innocent, I am definitely innocent of my charge, and also I assumed I would be in the next life. Where I believe that God is the ultimate judge, that he would understand the circumstances of that day, and he would know all of the circumstances of that day, but definitely innocent of that charge, and there wouldn’t be a conviction because you don’t convict a dead person, and I would be in a grave at that point.
76) In your interviews on TV were you forced to answer all of the questions they asked you?
I was not physically forced, but when put on the spot it kinda feels like it. For some reason I felt like I had to answer every question, but I wasn’t forced.
77) You have pictures of your other injury with time stamps, you do have any pictures of your finger with timestamps?
I guess that would be my left finger, I didn’t take a specific picture, but any picture taken after June 22nd would show my finger bent, like that one in the photo, or anywhere else.
78) Do you have any pictures of you wearing a finger splint?
No definatly not.
79) Did anyone see you while you were wearing a finger splint?
I wore it one day when I was working at Mimi’s cafe but I don’t know if anyone commented on it, or not so.. it was kinda embarrassing..
Objection (prosecution) non responsive to the question, she wasn’t asked if someone made a comment
80) When did you realize you had memory loss, the approximate date?
If that’s a reference to June 4th, when I pulled over in the car, and started looking around for the water, shoes, everything, just trying to clean myself up and that kind of thing, I can attribute it maybe to um, I had memory loss one time, when I was 19, because it was alcohol related. and one time when I was 15, it was alcohol related. Thats the only thing I can attribute it too, like a blackout. so then sometimes I couldn’t remember certain things, some things have come back to me since. Just not all of it.
81) Did you have an attorney prior to the interview with CBS?
Not for my case, I had an attorney for the limited purpose of helping me with my extradition from California,
Objection (procecution) can’t hear why
Sustained. “Yes or No”
Um, yeah, sort of
82) You said you got the two gas cans, so you could fill up in Nevada or Utah, where gas was cheaper, why did you fill them up in Pasadena ?
Thats why I initially got the cans from Darryl, so I could save money on gas and that kind of thing, I’m a coupon clipper and all that kinda person, but when I got to southern CA and realized I was taking the I-15 across two and a half states, I’ve never driven this before, it’s the middle of the night. I’m by myslelf, in a car I’m not really familiar with, I didn’t want to be stuck in the dark somewhere in the desert, I’ve heard lots of horror stories, and I wanted to make sure I wasn’t stranded.
83) In all of the 3 hour church sessions, such as Family Home Evening, Missionary discussions, and other church events, you were never told, or never under the impression that other forms of sexual intercourse, oral and anal were forbidden? I did get that impression on a few occasions and I discussed it with Travis. He clarified it for me, his way..
Objection (prosecution) she was asked about the church sessions not other occassions
Sustained. “is the answer Yes”
Um, somewhat, yes, but it wasn’t clear.
84) Did you know that Travis did not like John Dixon prior to your date with John Dixon?
No, prior to my first date with John Dixon, I don’t even think he knew John Dixon, maybe through PPL and I’m talking about before Travis and I became boyfriend and girlfriend. As far as the first date, after we broke up, I knew he didn’t care for John Dixon.
85) Why were you willing to get involved with two men at the same time?
I was trying to get, it was very difficult to breakaway from Travis. I mean we were going in different directions, but kept continuing with the same habits we had. Before I said I was monogomyst, and I do mean that I am sexually monogomyst, Ive never had more then one partner at the same time, in that reguard. So as far as Ryan, he was just a potential person that I wanted to get to know. If things had gone further, then I would have definately cut off things with Travis.
86) When you were asked about the video you made with Travis on June 4, 2008 you said you used Your camera, But when asked about it later, you said you didn’t take your camera out of the car that day, which of these 2 are true?
For clarification, both are true, the cannon stayed in the vehicle, the olympus was tiny and was always in my purse, and it was a stylus 500 model, I believe, and it had video on it, the cannon did not.
87) When you realized that you did not connect like expected, why did you continue to speak to Travis?
I think that’s a reference to Erinberge (sp?) because we weren’t connecting the way we had before, um Travis and I connected very well over the phone, It seemed like, it was more of an emotional and mental sort of connections, a meeting of the minds, so to speak, and I was not going to contact him again after three failed attempts, over the weekend and then I didn’t hear from him, so when he called me on Tuesday and left me a very sweet voice mail it was kinda a feeling of relief, like o..kay I wasn’t just being used, he still cares, so I called back and he was somewhat remorseful that we had gone that long without talking and we agreed to not do that again. I mean go that long without communication.
88) What is your understanding of the word “skank”?
I don’t know an official definition but it’s a very negative and pegoritive, derogative, term against women.
89) Why did you share housing with Matt at a time you were in a relationship with Travis?
Well, the reason I went to Big Sur, well, um, well Matt was the available housing in Big Sur and Matt by this point had reached..Objection (prosecution) She’s already answered the question with “available housing”Mumble Mumble (defense)Overruled you may continueOkay, the reason I felt comfortable living with Matt, because at that point in time, I want to say seven years after we had broken up, our friendship had evolved to a point where we were more like a brother / sister kind of relationship, there was no attraction, zero, we didn’t even hug, we were just friends and more like siblings, and I think Travis understood that
Objection (prosecution ) relationship ? something
90) Were there any girls working with you that you could share a room with?
At Ventana (sp?) no, there were not .
91) How can you be a sister to Matt, someone you’ve had sex with in the past?
It does sound strange, but it just has to do with the way our friendship had evolved after the breakup, um, I got over what he had did with Bianca that resentment melted away and gave way to just a sorta good will toward him and him toward me. Also, um, and our time at Ventana was broken up. At one point, I think I mentioned on Direct that the restaurant at Ventana closed and so the entire operation was moved over to the Inn and so during that five week period when the restaurant was being remodeled, Matt moved to Vale Colorado I didn’t see him for six, or seven, or eight months, he had another relationship at that time, and by the time he had moved back Darryl and I had started a relationship, and at first it was a little bit awkward, bu then Matt and I realized we just “jive:” in certain ways, but it’s like we are better off friends, then boyfriend and girlfriend, and that’s the place we reached an acceptance and there was no longer an attraction to Matt, I think it was that I was “blinded by love” and now I saw all of his other qualities, I still liked him as a person, but I was not attracted to him. If that makes sense.
92) Why didn’t you read the Book of Mormon to see what you were and were not allowed to do?
I did read the Book of Mormon, there is additional doctrine that explains the commandments much more, called the Doctrine and Covenants . The Book of Mormon covers a lot of basics, it’s very similar to the Bible, in some of those things, like the Beatitudes are reworded in one portion of it. I think the Ten Commandments are sort of reworded, in some portion of it. But its more the Doctrine and Covenants that goes into more detail. Also subsequent presidencies that the church has gone through has clarified even more, what certain commandments mean, what that really entails, such as the Word of Wisdom. When the Doctrine and Covenants was written in the 1800’s it doesnt say anything about coffee, tea, or alchohol or illegal drugs, it mentions hot drinks and tobacco and more clarification was given in the twentieth century and so it’s kinda like that, I did read the Book of Mormon but it’s not ultra specific.
93) Why did you ask Travis about everything you did?
About everything I did?
I don’t understand that question.
Judge – alright then, we’ll move on to the next one.
94) Why did you start a relationship with Ryan Burns when you said earlier, when I am with one guy, I don’t see other guys?
Well, I didn’ t consider myself Travis’ girlfriend because I had broke up with him on June 29th of the previous year, also I moved over a thousand miles to get away from him, and so, even though it was hard to break up, so to speak, we were broken up. But we still continued some of the same patterns we had. I was still attempting to move on, maybe not making the best attempt, but um, when someone introduced us throught text messages, we began, to call, sort hit it off, we were just talking friends, and it was only a potential thing, so I didn’t consider myself seeing Ryan or seeing Travis, but Travis was still the person I was most intimate with.
95) Why is it that you can not remember when Travis lent you money, but you remember the exact amount you lent him all three times?
I do remember times he lent me money, um, and I think I went into a few of those times, and the reason I specificly remember what he lent me, is because it is documented in my journal. I have since reread that journal several times.
96) Why did you think that the incident that happened on June 4, 2008 was any different then the ones before, so much so that you had to kill him to protect yourself?
June 4th was very different. In that, even though I thought he would never get that way again, and it’s because, like, I think he scared himself, when I passed out. Based on our subsequent conversations, we realized how far it went, I thought it was done at that point, as far as violence goes, so when it happened again, and I realized how far it can go, when it escalates, and he gets that angry, um, I was terrified this time, especially since he was trying to get on top of me. And also, he just kept coming, he didn’t stop, even when I tried to stop him by running away or pointing a weapon at him, he kept coming and kept coming and he just did not stop.
97) You mentioned injuries that would not have been seen by others when you were in Utah in June 2008, can you go into detail about where they were and how you recieved them?
Yes, my ankles were bleeding, not profusly, but they were scratched and they were injured. I had socks and shoes on. Also when I hit the tile the back of my head slammed the tile, right here, also my shoulder has never been the same, but I don’t know if it’s related to landing on the tile or not. It’s off all I can say, it hurts constantly actually.
98) When you injured your self, rotating the glasses, at Casa Romas, did your supervisor have you fill out any forms documenting the injury for workmans compensation purposes?
No, this was a small business operations, they didn’t have formalities like forms and that kinda thing, just what was minimumly required as far as being a legally documented worker. It was a very unformal, um, a less corperate kind of setting where those fomalities were done.
99) Who was the biggest factor in your decision to move from Big Sur/Palm Desert to Mesa, Travis or Rachael ?
It was Travis untimately.
100) You testified that you thought you heard his footsteps, if you weren’t sure, why didn’t you just run down stairs and out the door?
It was all a split second decision, but like I said, when I got toward the carpet area , that was where he had caught my wrist before when I began running down that hallway um, on a previous occasion. And so here I am running aways from him down the hallway again, and on the previous occasion my intention was to run out of the room and I didn’t make it out of the room so rather then this time, try to open the door, and run out of the room , this closet door was open, and I knew there was another exit, and so I just ran into that as quickly as I could.
101) Why would you take the time to delete the photos off of the camera after you killed Travis?That would go with all of the other things I did that day, when things happened I don’t have memory of it, specific memory of it at all. But I could…Objection (prosecution) says she doesn’t rememberSustained.
102) You stated you remembered dropping the knife and hearing it hit the tile, what happened to the knife after that?
I don’t specifically remember what happened right after that, I just know it didn’t go with me in the car.
Objection (prosecution) speculation
103) If your phone died while you were at Travis’ why not use a wall charger so you would have it charged before you got on the road?
That was a thought of mine, but Travis did not have a wall charger that had a plug that fit my type of phone. So I was not able to charge it there either.
104) In your email to Travis, after June 4 2008 , you told him you would sleep in his bed while he was in Cancun, did you ever stay at his house overnight, without him there? Yes, when I was pet sitting Napolian, I did that.
105) How is it that you were so calm on the television interviews?
I wanted to, I tried very hard to present the best imagine I could, and I had had a lot of prior experiences pretending that everything was okay, and when it wasn’t when everything on the surface was okay and really it wasn’t . Um, I was accustomed to that, and also I wanted to portray that I am confident that I’m okay, I didn’t do this, no worries, thats what I really wanted to get across at that time, and then I wanted to kill myself so I would never have to own up to it.
106) You stated in the 48 hours interview that Travis’ family deserved to know the truth, if you really believed that, why didn’t you confess then?
That was not entirely true in that I didn’t want them to know certain truths, and then again I said that because it is a derivative of my attempt to deny that I had anything to do with it.
107) If Travis wanted the phone sex conversations recorded, why didn’t he record them?
His phone did not have that capability, neither did mine until I bought the helio, or Gus got me the helio. I discovered that feature and we joked back and forth about it. Then I started to record them, when we decided we would do that, his phone didn’t have recording capability.
108) If you didn’t want to be tied up to a tree, why would you go up and look for a place that he could do that?
It wasn’t that I was looking for a tree to be tied to, we were out there looking for someplace out in nature that we could carry out this little red riding hood fantasy, and my understanding of that is that it would involve sex but he had many other ideas as you have heard on the tape, it didn’t nessisarily mean that I was going to go for all of those , I was kinda pushing my own limits anyways by going out into the woods, to find a spot and that was the purpose was for that fantasy but not specifically getting tied to a tree.
109) If you dropped the camera on the bathmat, how is it that it rolled all the way in front of the bathtub?
On the diagram it looks like a distance, but in reality it is a distance of this (jesters with her hands, about a foot?) you have the shower, a very thin wall, and then the bathtub begins right here, so where I was standing here, it didn’t have to roll, it bounced right off the mat. Its not way down by the bathroom area, but it’s right near the bathtub at that point, theres only a distance of about this much (jesters with hands, about 6 inches?) between the shower and the bathtub.
110) On the phone sex tape, when Travis was talking about taking photos and video was that all part of his fantasy?
Taking photos and video, yes that was a fantasy he hoped to realize.
111) Did you ever voice anything to Travis about being uncomfortable about any of his sexual fantasies?
Yes there was one fantasy that he wanted to do, which was pulling off on the side of a freeway exit and having sex on the hood of the car, and I was, I told him that would be impossible, I couldn’t even think of an exit in rural California where that could be accomplished nobody would see us, so that, and I was a little uncomfortable with the mile high thing he wanted to do cause the flight attendants tend to monitor whos going and coming from the bathrooms, and they don’t allow two people in the bathroom at once. So, just those two that I recall.
112) Why didn’t you call Ryan and tell him you were going to Arizona, when you decided you were going to Arizona?
(long pause) I guess I didn’t want Ryan to know that I still had the interest that I had in Travis. I guess it would be that, just like I didn’t want Travis to know, but for different reasons, I was interested in Ryan, I kinda felt like how would it sound if I called this guy that I am going to go meet and say Hey I’m gonna go hang out with my ex boyfriend for a while, sorry, You know, I just, I didn’t feel, I didn’t feel comfortable, or like that was something I would have done. Hey Im gonna go hang out with my ex, then swing by and meet you or something. It was a bad decision, but I made a lot of bad decisions when it came to Travis.
113) You have testified to many different occasions where you have performed sexual favors with Travis to keep him pleased and happy, are you saying you never got pleasure out of sex with Travis?
Definatly not, I did on many occasions, he was very romantic, very loving, and attentive and he cared about my pleasure as well, not always, but there were times when we were very compatible in that.
114) Why was it that you continued to carry your jounals around when it was possible that others, including Travis might find them and read them?
To my knowledge no one else ever read my journals, and once I found out Travis did I was a little more guarded about it, but I kept my journal inside my purse, and my purse zipped up, and nobody really went through my purse, so I considered it safe in my purse, because nobody got into my purse except me, typically.
115) Why is it that the law of attraction was so important to follow, but the law of chasity was not?
I believed that I was following the law of chastity for a long time, I realize now that I was not, the laws of a attraction was also a huge philosophy of mine, it was my second religion, pretty much, also with the law of chastity, there is a great deal of temptation when I would hang out with Travis, and even though we eventually , even how I understood it, began to violate the law of chastity, I guess it was like, I mean I don’t know, I guess it’s hard to describe, I think it was temptation, it was weakness, not that I didn’t believe in the law of chastity, but when it came to Travis, that was more important.
116) Do the laws of attraction also apply to recording phone sex conversations?
The Law of attraction? I guess it could be construed that way, in that when we were doing those things I got possitive, um, I had possitive interaction with Travis, he wasn’t angry, he was complementary, he would say things that were, in a complementary way, he would be nice to me, so it was the attention I was craving and the laws of attractions does state that you focus more on the qualities that you do like and don’t focus on the qualities that you don’t like. So when we were doing those things we were both focused on each other, maybe not in a spiritual way, but in a way that made me feel good, and him as well.
117) You stated that there were times when Travis made you tear out pages of negative things that you said about him, right before that you said that you wouldn’t write negative things about Travis in your journal, which is correct?
They are both correct, the entry that he made me tear out, was a lot more detailed and I was quoting him directly, on a couple of things he had said, and when he discoverd those, and my feelings, I used to write things to purge, um and when he admonished me and reminded me of the (air quotes) “secret” at that point I became, um, I wrote less specific things, sometimes I would just write about my emotions, and those were negative, but writing about suicidal thoughts for example would help me process it. Getting it down on paper helped me get it out of me. So when it came to Travis I would be less specific, Like I would write “today Travis was obscenely mean to me” but not go into detail about what that meant. I remember that that was just a really bad day, so I would write something to that effect.
118) Can we see examples of when you called me, who you did not have a romanitc interest in “hottie Biscotti” are there text messages, emails, or instant messages?
Um probably, well, none that I’ve seen, that have been recovered, but there would be some in text messages, I texted Darryl alot, I texted….
Objection (prosecution) They asked what could be shown and that is not what she is telling
Judge – Approach please
Judge rereads the question
Yes, text messages not the other.
119) If you were not going to marry Travis because of the Jan, 21, 2008 and Jan 22, 2008 events, then why stay with him at all?
It was difficult to stay away from him. Difficult to break away from him, and when he would invite me over, I would, it was very hard to say no. He was persuasive and still had an effect on me, that when I came over and he was in a good mood, it made me feel good. And I enjoyed being with him during those times, and that’s something I was familar with.
120) Do you feel the guys in your life cheated on you because you were controlling?
I feel it was just the oppisite, I feel they cheated on me because to tolerant , I was very trusting, implicitely trusting and very naive and I gave them the freedom to be and do what they wanted, when they wanted and I think they took advantage of that.
121) Were you mad at Travis while you were stabbing him?
I don’t remember fear being a prominant, oh, I’m sorry, I don’t recall anger being a prominant….
Objection (prosicution) Previously she stated she didn’t remember, if she does remember she should tell us.
Jodi – I remember emotions judge
Judge- The question is (repeats question)
I don’t remember being angry that day, I remember being terrified.
Objection (prosecution) it state while stabbing him (?)
Judge – I’m going to substain the objection, I think you’ve answered the question.
122) How is it that you remember so many of your sexual encounters, including your ex- boyfriends, but you do not remember stabbing Travis and dragging his body?
Well, as far as what happened on June 4th, I don’t know how the mind works necessarily but, I know that was the most tramatic experience in my life. Outside of those blanks and the ones I’ve mentioned as far as that were alchohol related when I was a teenager, I don’t know that I have other blackouts that I can recall, just when memories get foggy when I get stressful, I think that I have a very good memory, I can remember tons of things, but when I am under a stressful situation then its as if my mind, if you can imagine it, a computer that freezes, its turned on , but it’s not functioning and you can hit the keys, but nothings happening. Just like the sound waves are hitting my ears but my brain is not computing, it’s kinda like that. So I don’t black out at those times, but my mind is not processing the English words that are being sent to me, or screaming at me, whichever.
123) During cross examination you were asked if you were crying when you stabbed Travis and you said no, how do you know that if you had a memory gap at that time?
I think that was misunderstood, I said I don’t know, and I know I was probably crying when I said that and maybe I didn’t speak up clearly enough when I said that, but I said I Dont Know. not No.
124) You said you bought a gun to commit suicide but ended up not doing it, what stopped you from doing so?
I was going to wait until I left Yreka and got to the Selinas or Monteray area, so that it didn’t happen right in my family’s own back yard, so to speak, and I was leaving for that area the morning I was arrested actually.
125) You stated you did not want kids with Travis because you would be worried about them, if that is true, why did you tell Leslie that you couldn’t wait for your’s and Travis’ kids to play together at future PPL events?
Um, I wanted Travis to be viewed in a possitive light, and I know that he wanted to be viewed in a possitive light, I didn’t want to de-edify him especially not at the moment I made those statements. Prior to June 4th that was a hope of mine, it wasn’t that I couldn’t wait, just that sometimes PPL events would be family oriented and I would hope that our families would be able to be coordial and kind. Not that we would ultimately be very close, but that was a hope of mine, that someday we could be happy for each other in our respective marriages, and I didn’t want to say anything bad about him.
126) A lot of your testimony and answers to the questions you were asked made it sound like you put Travis’ priorities and feelings before your own, if that were true why didn’t you call for help after you shot Travis?
Usually I put his prioritites before mine, when it was something that he wanted. When the gun went off I didn’t know, that I had shot him, I thought it hit a wall, so as far as calling 911, immediately after it wasn’t an option, he lunged at me and we fell, and wrestled there for a quick second before I broke away. And then as far as not calling 911 , like I said I can’t really explain my state of mind following and after that it was basically fear based. As far as not calling any authority or telling any authority at all.
127) Why did you decide to tell the truth two years after the killing?
It took two years because I was , um, very deeply ashamed of what had happened I used to consider people who were violent in any form to be somewhat unevolved, thats how I looked at it. And now I was that kind of person to a very extreme degree and I was horrified with myself. And it was not the kind of person I was trying to portray to the world as well as who I ever believed I could be inside or out. However as time went on, I evolved and matured, I gained more perspective as things get farther away. There were alot of people that reached out to me and offered support because they believed in my stupid story, I felt really bad for that because they were there for me, and wanted to offer moral support and I felt fradulant the further along things got. It started off as I will be dead soon, then became a secret I wanted to take to my grave with me, then it became one that I didn’t want to keep anymore. so it wasn’t an overnight decision, it was a very gradual process and it becomes a really yucky feeling inside, you just , it doesn’t feel good.
128) What made you change your mind and tell everyone about Travis’ secret – The child picture?
Well the first time I decided to was when I was talking to a psychologist , um, from California, and, we were exploring dynamics of our relationship.It took me a long time, but several months beyond that, I told………..other people. It became… I had made a promise to him that I would never say anything…. and so he made a promise that he would get help and…I wanted to keep my promise, I didn’t want to throw mud on him. He was….um… it’s not like he was a threat…that anything was going to happen to any children at this point. Why even go there, why tell anyone? But it was such a huge part of our relationship, in that everything thereafter changed, everything so when I realized that in retrospect I don’t think he upheld his end of the bargin I felt less obligated to keep that secret and also, it was just, … it changed everything in our relationship, and so leaving that element out, it’s like a huge missing piece of the puzzle, of how things ultimately evolved the way they did.
129) You said you were sick to your stomach with child pictures, so why did you sleep with him again?
Um, well, after throwing up a few times that day, I wanted to talk to him and give him a chance to explain what was going on. So we ended up getting along together after FHE , much later in the evening, and he gave me a tearful explanation, and I felt more sympathetic toward him, then discusted at that point. Because of how he explained it to me.
130) Would you classify your relationship with Travis as a Love/Hate relationship?
It certainly had all the motions of a love/hate relationship, but I never felt that I hated Travis. I screamed that out one time, when he wasn’t present, after a really mean phone call, but I never felt hatred toward Travis. Although we had those ups and downs that were pretty extreme.
131) On June 4, 2008, after you got up and ran toward the closet, is it possible that Travis picked up the camera on the bathroom floor and moved it?
To clarify I didn’t run toward the closet, I ran down the hall, after I rolled away from him, and that’s completely possible, and that’s an idea I’ve entertained. Also, but I didn’t see anything, I just ran and I didn’t look back.
132) Could that also explain the delay in his arrival and his anger in the closet at the door threshold?
-to judge – would that be the camera related?
-Judge – Yes
It certianly could, the delay, maybe the floor was wet and he , I don’t know if it was the traction, but with him getting down the hallway, I don’t know, but the camera, I don’t even remember how the camera ended up where it did, so if he picked it up and inspected it, or how it got kicked around, or if it got kicked around, that kind of thing.
133) Given, that sense there are guiding principles, such as “The Law of Attraction” and practices such as passing down journals to future generations, do you feel that the Mormon religion encourages burying the truth about issues that may be considered embarrassing?
–to judge – Encourages burying the truth?
Judge – Yes,
To be clear, ahem… , the Law of Attraction and the Mormon church are two different animals, they entertwine in some ways, with certain scripture, but they are completely seperate, um in Mormonism being a religion, I felt that there was an undercurrent in the church that puts pressure on the members to present a squeeky clean image, however I know that is not official church policy, even though you feel that pressure when you are in the church, um my understanding of the official church policy is that if you have transgressed in any way, no matter how embarrassing, if it is a serious transgression, you, it’s delt with internally in the church, internally inside, but also internally with a church authority such as a bishop or any other appropriate church athority. Um, the Law of Attraction, the way I embraced it, 4 or 5 years ago, i was in denial, I didn’t want to deal with the negative things I was going through, because I thought that by dealing with them, I would be focusing on them, and then that would attract more of them, rather than dealing with them in a healthy way to eradicate them. Sooo-to judge – I kinda lost track of the question-judge repeats this part of the question “do you feel that the Mormon religion encourages burying the truth about issues that may be considered embarrassing?”The Mormon religion, yes, um you are encouraged to always tell the truth no matter how bad it is. That doesn’t mean broadcasting it, but going through appropriate channels, for repentence.
134) Can you give a few examples of what might be considered negative other then those already discussed?
-to judge – negative experiences?
Judge -negative – it’s in connection with your journals
Well, I don’t know if that means specifically to me, but other then violating the law of chastity or violence, that sort of thing, um, words that you speak, um, there is doctrine in the church that says every word that flows from our mouth, we will be held accountable for those words one day, um so that’s an example of something negative, I know some Mormons who drink, that’s an example of something negative, I know gay Mormons and homosexuality is prohibited in the church, thats something the church considers negative, thats not my philosophy, there are things to that effect, I mean plenty of things go on and on , I mean, I guess there would be an example as far as, the homosexuality goes because Travis wanted to have a threesome with another woman, and I wasn’t, I mean, I’m not gay, but it was something I was contemplating so obviously, in addition to the sexual sin, depending on what interactin I may or may not have had with that woman, could also be a violation of another law, in that reguard.
135) How do you determine when you will tell the truth, and when you will not tell the truth?
What are the determining factors?Anything that related back to my involvement with Travis’ death or deedifying him in any way, I covered up, I attempted to cover up, So the lies that I told after all of this happened, were directly related to any of those two things.
136) When did you find Travis’ gun?
It would have been Oct , Nov sometime in the fall, it was before Christmas, 2007, I know it was before Christmas, I don’t remember the exact time. but in the fall.
137) Was it kept loaded in the closet?
He told me it was not loaded….
Objection (prosecution) hearsay
He assured me it wasn’t loaded because
Objection (prosecution) .. now..(?)
Jodi –starts to talkto Judge -Oh, I’m sorryJudge
to Judge – Should I?
Judge – wait for another question
138) Today March, 5, 2013 you stated before lunch that you think you filled the car up first, if you did have the 3rd gas can as we saw in several hypothetical situations after lunch, do you see it possible to put 8.301 gallons of gas in the car, exhitbit # 237.011 and then 9.59 and 2.74 gallons for a total of 12.368 gallons in the remaining 3 gas cans?
Exhibit 237.011 , 237.012, and 237.013? Okay that was a lot of elements to that question, so first, I didn’t have 3 gas cans,
Objection (prosecution) non responsive, she was asked…(?)..three gas cans
Overruled, you can continue
I didn’t have 3 gas cans, um, I believe we were discussing a hypothetical, if I had 3 gas cans, and no, it would not make sense to put only 2 gallons and change into one gas can, while filling up the others, and as far as I think I filled up the car first or not, I honestly don’t know what came first, I do remember having a fear of filling the gas cans, overfilling them, because I didn’t want overflow, and its a highly flammable substance, so I remember that, so I can’t say I filled them all the way to their maximum capacity or not. But I wouldn’t have only put two gallons in one, if I had filled up two more, I only had two anyway, so there were never three on that trip, when I pulled out of Salinas.
139) You initially testified that sex was a way for Travis to relieve stress, and later testified that it was a way for him to relieve anger, which is correct?
Both are correct, anger was stressful and he had the term destress and sex was a way to destress, and it seemed like after he climaxed, that he felt a lot more calm.
140) How do you know that?
Based on his dimeanor and conversations we have had reguarding that and requests that he’s made specifically to that , of that nature. and the term destressed.
141) Would a screwdriver be required to take off the license plates?
Objection (prosecution) hearsay
judge repeats question
I believe so, because we had, Ryan had to borrow a screw…
Objection (prosecution) hearsay
142) Did you find it strange that only your license plate was messed with in that parking lot?
I don’t know that only my license plate was messed with.
143) If you were driving to a place you had never been before, meaning Utah, why didn’t you map out towns that would have different gas stations or rest stations?
I did go to MapQuest to determine the numbers of hours it might take, and I printed out MapQuest directions. I also printed out MapQuest directions from San Diego to west Jordon , as well as from Pasadena or whatever area to West Jordon, um I wouldn’t know even what website to visit I guess I could have gone to Google and just typed in “where are the gas stations on I-5” to bring all that up, I am not aware of a website that specifically shows those things, thats for that purpose, I only knew of MapQuest, and I printed directions out, because I had relied on my GPS all those years, but I was not going to be taking that car with the GPS , which usually just guided me, and could tell me where the gas stations were.
144) Did you ever see a doctor for your memory issues?
I don’t believe I have memory issues, that are really persistant, I just have trouble processing things under stressful circumstances. And June 4th is kinda in a class of it’s own. Out side of those things, I feel like I have a really good memory. And I never thought to seek medical help or any kind of professional help for that.
145) If you were scared of Travis’ anger and violence, why would you go upstairs when he was banging his head, knowing he was already mad?
Well, Travis had never, .. for one, I didn’t know he was banging his head, I just didn’t know what this steady noise was. It was just sorta a pounding, not incredibly loud, but loud enough to hear downstairs, and two he had never been violent with me prior to that, well, I mean, it wasn’t violent, the only time he had been physical with me, was when he had grabbed my wrist at the convention, um so I didn’t really fear physical harm from him at that point in time.
146) Did Travis ever tell you he kept his gun loaded?
He told me of one time that he did consider loading it, but he assured me that it was not loaded.
147) If you did not think the gun was loaded, why chance grabbing a gun that may not be loaded, instead of just running outside?
I grabbed the gun, not because I intended to shoot him, I grabbed the gun because my thought was if a gun is pointed, you stop. Whether its loaded or not, I’ve always been taught that you don’t point guns at people, period. Just as a safety precaution, so I can only imagine, what I would do in that situation, if a gun were pointed at me, I would stop. And I was hoping that it would have that effect on him.
148) You stated that when you walked out of Starbucks, you didn’t notice anything wrong with the back of the car, how is it that the back license plate ended up upsidedown?
I didn’t see anyone turning my license plate upsidedown, nor did I notice the license plate when I walked out, what I noticed were kids skating away from my car. It’s possible that it could have happened…Objection (prosecution) speculationOverruledIt’s possible that it could have happened at any point during my trip, I could have even rented the car that way and never noticed. BUT I believe
149) Why did you plan on going to see John Dixon when you were on your way to Utah to see Ryan?
John Dixon was a friend, um, although there was somewhat of an interest there, it was nothing that I had ever let grow because he wasn’t a church member, so it would be kind of a poor investment of my heart to get attached to somebody who was not a member of the church. What I was going down there for, is he had a friend, who either owned a gallery, or ran a gallery, where he hung some of the greats such as Van Gogh and Monet, when I told him I painted, he said we can make a space in this gallery for you, I can hang it right next to a Monet or Van Gogh , it sounded like a very big, it sounded like an exciting thing for me because one of my goals at that time was to get my paintings into galleries.
150) How many men were you willing to be involved with at the same time?
Well it depends on the level of intimacy, as far as a boyfriend. I have one boyfriend at a time, an intimate partner, one at a time. In the church you are encouraged to …Objection (prosecution) nonresponsive “she’s already indicated one , and then she wants to talk about the church again”Defense – She’s explaining her answer and her beliefs about dating as the question called for Overruled – you may continueIn the church you are encouraged to date around and find somebody that you might be compatible with, and not to get to serious with someone you don’t think you will be compatible with. So Mormons are encouraged to go on group dates and not spend to much time together with only one person, unless you are certain that you are going to start getting serious with that person.
151) Did you ever seek medical help for your mental condition?
I’m not sure what mental condition that refers to but …
(Judge cut her off and started reading the next question. )
152) Have you ever taken medication for your memory issue?
153) Did you ever tell anyone about your condition prior to the killing?
I don’t really think that I have much of a condition, prior to the killing, um just I have ADD I think, because I space out..
Objection (prosecution) Non responsive “they asked her if she told somebody about it not what….”
154) You told us you were not able to make out the license plate leaning against the curb in front of the car, because you are nearsighted and did not get glasses until 2010, what is your prescription in each eye?
My understanding is that my prescription is -2.5 and -2.55 .
155) Is there anyone who saw you shaking during a fight with Travis?
Dan probably, Dan saw me visably upset, after , but I don’t thing anyone saw us fighting during at least to the level of fights that it would cause me to shake.
156) Do any of your journal entries or any other items discuss you shaking, blacking out, or getting scrambled?
Possible illusions (?) of getting scrambled, but not blacked out, um except like I said, those two times, when I , they were alchohol induced, one time I did induce blacking out with some friends, that was earlier then that, that was a one time incident, I didn’t journal about blacking out, because there were no instances of blacking out during the time I was journaling, and shaking , I mean I shook when I wrote, but didn’t write that I was shaking. So probably only when I got scrambled, there were times when I would write things.
157) You claim to have memory gaps or lapses during time of stress, such as when you are being yelled at or grilled, how is it you have such memories of violence and yelling by Travis’ such a long time ago, if this is the case?
With the violence, it’s not that, I have to process the English language, its more that I feel those things, I know he broke my finger, because it’s still broken, or it’s healed but it’s crooked, I know he choked me out because I woke up from being unconscience ,. As far as him yelling, I know that he’s yelling because there is a loud volume, and it has an effect on me, I don’t know all the things he said, for example the night he was , he said dispariging things about my grandfather and my brother, those stand out, that’s all I can remember, of the three hour session of him scream at me, before I was able to leave, so many things were said , um, mean things, and I didn’t process them all, some I wrote down, and then he made me tear them out, so I didn’t write them after that.
End of Day One Juror Questions
Juror Questions Day Two – March 7, 2013 –
158) Several times while testifying about the abuse by Travis you have made comments like “how I understand it now” and “I’ve come to realize”, how has this realization come about ?
In.. because at least almost five years have passed just the more I get away from the situation the more perspective I have, where before I just always constantly made excuses for him, now I understand that the things that occurred were not okay, and um forgiving him is different from contiually putting up with it, so in hindsight the further I get away from the situation the more perspective I have of those events and the abuse.
159) Were individuals involved in helping you come to these realizations?
Um, sometimes spiritual, um leaders, things like that . It’s mostly just reflection on the incidents.
160) Tell us who they are and what their professions may be?
These were individuals with the church, I don’t know what their professions are , but they come to my.. they come to where I live and they council me spiritually , things like that, um, most of them are from the Mormon church, there is also a lady from the Baptist church who continues to visit me regularly.
161) You were recalling times of memory loss with Travis, how is it possible you remember such details about those days if you had a “foggy” memory?
-To Judge – I’m sorry could you repeat that please?
Judge repeats question
The fog or the confusion only begins when he starts screaming or there is a fear that maybe there is going to be tension or any kind of escalation of anger or violence, and then certain incidents, such as the physical pain is crystalized in my mind.So that sticks and then um, also there are journal entries that I’ve made that remind me of that day in details of that day, so it helps to remember, oh, yeah, that day I did this, before I went to Travis’ house and I remember it was around this time or this day, or this day of the week, so I did review my journals constantly, over the years and that has given me perspective as far as , you know, things like that so the confusion comes in when he begins to get angry.
162) Is there anyone else who knows about your memory issues?
Um, well, and again I think I have a really excellent memory, just the issues…
Objection (prosecution) she was asked (and I can’t make out the rest)
Judge – Answer the question as stated
Jodi to judge , oh, okay.It’s hard cause I don’t think I have memory issues
Judge – alright then, that’s your answer
163) Did Travis’ room mates ever hear these altercations, to your knowledge?
I’m not sure, about that.
164) To your knowledge, did anyone else hear your altercations?
Yes, they have. That would be Dan Freeman who heard the last tail end of the altercation the morning we went to Havasupi, he came into the bedroom as Travis was storming out of the bedroom, so there was that, then also in the car we had pulled over and it was actually so I could use the bathroom, in the forest rather then take pictures, but um, that led to an argument when I came back to the car and he had locked me out. Travis locked me out, so he saw that, I just went and sat by the side of the road. and waited for him to open the door, and he lost patience and he came out of the car and I came back in, but it led to an argument over that, so Dan and Desiree were a witness to that, I don’t know if they saw any other arguments and I don’t think that anyone else, to my knowledge would have seen any.
165) You have testified to several instances where Travis was physical to you, were you ever physical to Travis, besides when you killed him?I think when he was choking me, my hands were free, because he was over my torso, my arms were free, so I may have, tried to push him off, or , I didn’t want to injure him, I just wanted him to get off of me, but that was very quick and it didn’t last long.
166) Would you consider the event when Travis choked you as a stressful event?
167) If yes, then why do you recall the event so clearly?
I remember up to the point where he was choking me, and passing out , I had disorientation after I woke up, um, I had to get my bearings, I wasn’t sure where I was, then I recognized Travis’ bedroom, I was laying on my side coughing and so I saw the carpet..
Objection (prosecution) nonresponsive, the question is how is she able to recall it today.
Overruled you may continue
So I was experiencing disorientation, I wasn’t thinking gosh, Travis’ just choked me out, actually a thought just sort of wandered through my mind (made little fishy swimming through water motion with her hand) Wheres Nepolian, in my head so that was my thought and it didn’t really have any relation to the event, that was just a thought. I was kinda getting my bearings, um, so there is, it’s not completely clear, I just remember he had his hands around my neck, and he was banging my head on the carpet. I tried to push him off, and then it was, and then I blacked out. Really shortly after that.
168) In the moments of stress or fog, how do you remember those moments if it effects your memory?
I don’t recall clearly what happens in those moments, as far as details, every detail, I just sometimes I have a general sense of what’s going on, and sometimes I don’t but as far as the fog goes, it’s more of again, words that are being spoken, or screamed or yelled, and that what processing that sort of thing, physical things I can remember because I feel them physically, I can remember what I feel internally and emotionally as well, but it’s more the words that are being spoken and their meanings, but I do remember how I feel , if that makes sense.
169) Why were you afraid of the consequences if you killed Travis in self defense?
I was, I believed that it’s not okay in any circumstance to take someones life even if you are defending your own life, that’s how I believed it. So I never really stopped to consider how society would view it. If someone is defending themselves, I just felt like I had done something wrong and I was afraid of what the consequences would be.
170) What happened to the gas cans after the road trip in June of 2008?
They went back to my grandmother’s house, where I went back to eventually and I was taking a road trip to Monteray and had intended to bring them to Darryl, but I never made it to that road trip.
171) Reguarding shakey memory, foggy reaction:
(1) Do you always have a reaction as you describe when someone challenges you?
I do now, I’ve gotten a little bit better and a little bit stronger it’s a condition that started , again, in Nov 2007 and continues to this day, but I’ve gotten a little better about it.
(2) Is this the same reaction you have when someone yells or raises their voice at you?
Yes, for the most part , sometimes someone might yell and it’s done and over with, and it doesn’t make me shake, but um, the majority of the time it does.
(3) Have you any had any situations where you have raised your voice?
Yes, probably a million times.
172) You mentioned the pain of sex is one of the reasons you brought KY into the relationship , what are the other reasons?
Well, um, for example on direct I think I mentioned that it facilitates our activities a little bit better , it um, makes them more enjoyable, and of course less painful.
173) During these altercations, why didn’t you just scream in hopes that someone would hear you and help?
I did scream, I wasn’t thinking of somebody helping me , for example I screamed when he threw me on the floor and started kicking me , I was unable to scream when he had his hands around my windpipes , and I’m sure I was screaming on June 4th.
Judge to Jodi – I am handing you exhibit 164 –
174) What was the date and time stamped on exhibit 164?
1:42 and 53 seconds pm
Judge to Jodi – and the date?
I’m sorry it was 6-4-2008
175) If you were scared of what Travis was capable of doing, why would you ever let him tie you up?
When that occurred, he was in a very good mood, and he wasn’t displaying any signs of aggitation, and that was the Travis that I liked and was not afraid of. The moment he began to get angry my warning bells started to go off and I began to get cautious , for lack of a better term, but he hadn’t displayed any of that, we had just woke up and were getting along, and then again they were loose enough to wiggle out of. So I wasn’t stuck there, like at his mercy so to speak.
176) Was Travis tied up at any point on June 4, 2008?
177) Do you recall the injuries on Travis’ body from the date of June 4, without the aid of photographs ?
No, I didn’t even realize that I shot him.
178) You stated that one of the reasons you decided not to write negative things in your journal was because you were concerned that Travis would read it, is that correct?
That’s correct, after Oct I didn’t write anything else negative, um, he found it. This would have been late Oct or early Nov, and said that’s not in line with the “secret” the secret being the law of attraction, and made me tear it out so, at that point, I was into the Law of Attraction, I agreed with him, I figured he’s right and honestly I felt really bad because thats the first time he had ever heard me say something , write something negative about him, I’d never said negative things toward him, or about him, I always edifyed him possitively behind his back, and I felt kinda like I had been caught saying something very bad about him, so I didn’t do that anymore.
179) If that is the case, why were you okay with leaving an entry in your journal that Travis would get angry if he knew you had gone to Racheal’s house?
That would have been in late Aug or Sept that I had wrote that, and this arguement that occurred would be late Oct. and the subsequent lecture of writing negative things, occurred after that , maybe later in Oct. late late or early Nov.
180) Why was it okay to write about how Travis mad you both sick and happy or sad and miserable or that something wasn’t right about him?
That was a very mild way of how I sometimes felt about that darker side of him, as far as sick or miserable, as far as just the emotional turmoil and the um pedophilia and so that was also a side of him, that again he was trying to overcome and erradicate . So at the same times he had beautiful sides to him, so what I was doing in that, I was listing the contrast of the range of emotions of what I felt when I was with him.
181) After you snatched the gun off the shelf, did you do anything to the gun, such as cock it, slip off the safety, manipulate a slide or anything prior to it going off?
I don’t even think I would know how to do that, so the answer is I don’t know. Probably not, I just grabbed it and pointed it, from what I remember.
182) Had you any firearms training or fired a .25 caliber pistol prior to this event?
Um, never fired a gun, but I was realitively familiar with them, not formally trained. Just realtively familiar just, I don’t know, not formally trained.
183) How far away from you, was Travis when the gun went off?
Not when he lunged but when the gun went off?The lunging and the gun going off were sort of contemporanios, I don’t remember how close they were or if it happened at exactly the same moment or one right after the other, it all happened very fast, and it all seemed to happen all at once, and I would say as far as distance, maybe as far as Mr. Babbikey (sp?) is, (court reporter?) but I couldn’t say for sure with absolute certainty.
184) You stated that you remember throwing the gun into the desert but do you remember what happened to the box it was in?
No I do not.
185) What about the holster you mentioned?
I only saw the holster before I moved, I didn’t see it again after that.
186) Did he keep extra ammunition with the gun?
I never saw ammunition next to the gun, and I never found any in the house when I was cleaning.
187) If Travis lunged at you, why didn’t you just move to the side out of his way?
Well, it happened very fast, I didn’t have time to think everything just happened um, it seemed in a split second. So.. I really don’t.. I just didn’t have time to think to go this way or that way or to do this or that , it just happened without really thinking about the best move to make.
188) You remember dropping the knife and screaming, but you don’t remember taking the gun or rope with you, is that correct?
In a sense that is correct, I remember that. Dropping the knife , screaming and that memory came much later, Objection (prosecution) beyond the scopeJodi to judge – I’m sorry, can I restart?Overruled – you may continueUm, but it goes blank after that. I don’t remember putting the gun in the car, I don’t remember putting the rope in the car, but I have, not crystal clear, but pretty, pretty solid memories of disposing of those. So they did go in the car obviously, but I dont remember placing them in the car.
189) You are stating you beleive you stabbed Travis based on logic, how do you explain the blood on your hands, and clothes and the bloody palmprint on the way?
Well…..I do know that we struggled that day, and based on logic it would have been because of how we fought . I don’t know how things ended up, where they ended up. I just know that we were fighting physically.
190) If you were kneeling when you dropped the camera, how did it roll as far as it did?
It didn’t roll very far, it just kinda gave a bounce or two. and maybe rolled like right here (gestures with her hands out of view) it didn’t roll very far.
191) Was Travis sitting down when you dropped the camera?
Yes, he was. I think so.
192) How did Travis’ anger escalate after you shot him?
He… I don’t remember the words he was saying, but he was angrier, he was screaming more, he was cursing more, um, and we had fallen over right after that shot occurred and he was grabbing on my clothes and grabbing at me. And then again, as soon as I broke away, he threatened my life, and so that was definately an escalation in his anger, thats how I interpretted it.
193) Was he chasing you after you shot him in the head?
Right after the shot occurred, um , we had fallen over in the bathroom again toward the sink, the sink and garbage can area, kind of in the corner, and so he didn’t chase me in that moment, but that’s where we struggled on the floor. And again as soon as I broke away, he said “F’ing kill you Bitch” I don’t remember a lot after that, so whether he chased me or not, I couldn’t say.
194) When you purchased gas at the Arco in Pasadena, why didn’t you just fill everything up at the pump so that it was all under one transaction? Why do three different transactions?
Well, what I do recall is when I filled the gas cans, rather then have just a loose gas hose somewhere, I didn’t have anywhere to put it, um so, I hung it up and when I hung it up, that ends the transaction, so that’s probably why, I mean, if I could of put them back in the trunk or whatever, then started the car or vise versa , um at one point, I didn’t want to just set it, on the ground, so I hung it up, and that ended the transaction, so thats probably why there were more then one, and maybe I was topping of the gas tank for another.
195) During your testimony about the abuse by Travis you have made several comments like “As I understand it now” or “I’ve come to realize” when discussing events that you may not have classified as abuse then, but see it as such now, have you utilized professional help?
I have not had access to professional help. No, I haven’t utilized that.
196) Did you enjoy having sex with Travis?
For the most part, yes, I did, very much.
197) Did he force you to do things you did not want to do?
There were things I was uncomfortable with, I didn’t feel altogether forced, I went along with it. So I , he didn’t physically force me or anything like that.
198) Why did you wait for so long to tell the truth?
Again, it took, it took a long time, it took a long time for me to get to this point, I never wanted to admit to this and I’d written out all of my suicide letters, I sent my note, I sent them all in an envelope to my grandmother, do not open until Nov 10th 2008, I was hoping to be dead by then, giving myself a little time, to get my affairs in order, that date rolled by and then more time rolled by and I was still here, so with the evolution of just time and the years that went by, it was a gradual process, I began to feel not right about keeping it in instead.
199) How many times did you try to kill yourself?
I beleive that was in CA when I took apart my razor, and was gonna do that, that was the only serious attempt I’ve made, other then that it’s just like ideation, thinking of how I might be able to do this or that.Things like that.
200) Would you decide to tell the truth if you never got arrested?
I honestly don’t know the answer to that question.
201) You said that one of your worst fears was for everyone to find out what was going on in your relationship so why did you talk to 48hours and other TV stations?
My attempt to talk to them was to present a better image of our relationship, and to downplay the negative aspects of it, like “it’s not really a big deal” “oh, it wasnt that bad” that kinda thing, like “oh, yeah, I knew that he did that, but that wasn’t a big deal” um, even our arguments, oh, sure it was rocky, there was turmoil, but we were friends, so my attempt was more to present a good image of Travis, and a good image of myself and that our relationship had it’s ups and downs, but we were still um, on good terms.
202) You stated in the interview with Detective Florez that Travis liked to shave the old fashioned way, this would traditionally include the use of a straight razor, did Travis own or use a straight razor?
I don’t think he did, when I said traditional I’m not overly familiar with the process of how men shave their faces, I just know that he really got into it. So. I think he used something that would be like a “Bic” actually.
Prosecution – Excuse me,I didn’t hear that, like a what?
Like a Bic, a Bic razor.
203) In testimony on March 5, 2013, you mentioned filling a 3rd gas can, when and where did you get this can?
Jodi to Judge – can you repeat that?
On March 5? I beleive that was a hypothetical, I had a third can when I originally purchased it in Salinas, I returned it before leaving Salinas, so what we were doing was throwing out a hypothetical as to why I would only put 2 gallons in a third tank, or a third can, so that was a hypothetical, I only had 2 gas cans with me.
204) Why didn’t you just run out of the house instead of grabbing the gun from the closet?
Well, again I can’t, it happened so fast, I did initially think Run, so I went down the hallway and then right as I got to the hallway, with the doors being shut, it just seemed like more of an obsticle it would give him more time to catch up, to open the door this way and run around it (uses one hand to run around other, in demonstration) and out, when this door was an equal distance and open. I could run that way and into it. So my thought initially was to run out this door, and then around and out, but I was doing something just to create more distance, because last time I had run that same route and I was not successful in running out of the room.
205) You said you weren’t sure when the gun went off, that you had shot Travis, so when you came out of the fog on the way to Utah, why didn’t you call 911 to help Travis?
When I sort a came out of the fog, I realized “oh, crap” something bad had happened and I was scared to call any authority at that point.